Red Sox might be wise to wash hands of Manny

OK, Manny Ramirez apologized. That still doesn't excuse him for pushing Red Sox traveling secretary Jack McCormick to the ground after a dispute over tickets Saturday night in Houston. Manny wanted 16 tickets on short notice, and according to the Providence Journal, shouted, "Just do your job!" when McCormick expressed concern that he could not meet the request.


Manny's antics and leveling play may make him expendable in Boston. (Bob Levey / Associated Press)
Did the Red Sox discipline Manny? They're saying only that they handled the matter internally. Should they have disciplined him? It goes without saying. But the Sox can't touch Manny, lest he go into one of his periodic funks. So, they tolerate his obvious sense of entitlement and disrespect for a longtime team employee, viewing the incident as an aberration.

It was, to a degree; Manny mostly acts like a big kid who wouldn't hurt anyone. Still, McCormick is 64, and when you come right down to it, there is little difference between Ramirez's behavior and Shawn Chacon's — except that Chacon is a journeyman while Ramirez is a future Hall of Famer.

To this point, I've thought it was a lock that the Red Sox would exercise Ramirez's $20 million option for next season, but now I'm not so sure. Manny's production no longer is otherworldly. The free-agent market would offer no clear-cut solution, but at worst the Sox could go with Jacoby Ellsbury, Coco Crisp and J.D. Drew in the outfield and David Ortiz at DH. Or, they could try to trade for a replacement such as the Rockies' Matt Holliday.

The Sox have proven they can function without Ortiz, at least short-term. As long as they still had Ortiz, they could survive without Manny, too.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8301638

they would be crazy to get rid of him.

The thought the Manny is "expendable" is laughable. Maybe he's not worth 20mil per season yes Only rank 12th in the AL in OPS, and his 16 HR and 52 RBI are only 6th.

Now as for picking up his option, I never thought that was a good idea, 20 mil is better spent elsewhere.

The only way Boston CAN let go of Manny is if they replkace his bat in their lineup. Who's gonna do that?

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Originally Posted by gRYFYN1

The thought the Manny is "expendable" is laughable. Maybe he's not worth 20mil per season yes Only rank 12th in the AL in OPS, and his 16 HR and 52 RBI are only 6th.

Now as for picking up his option, I never thought that was a good idea, 20 mil is better spent elsewhere.

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Huh??? Are you actually saying its not a good idea to pick up his option?? Ludicrous.

Much wiser to pick up his option than resign him because he'll demand at least a 3 year deal, more likely 4 at close to that 20 mil figure. A few more mil now protects you as he ages and avoids the long term deal. They have 2 years of options.

If this was similar to the Chacon incident, absolutely get him out, but that was insubordination and this just sounds like a misunderstanding of sorts.

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Originally Posted by dickay

Huh??? Are you actually saying its not a good idea to pick up his option?? Ludicrous.

Much wiser to pick up his option than resign him because he'll demand at least a 3 year deal, more likely 4 at close to that 20 mil figure. A few more mil now protects you as he ages and avoids the long term deal. They have 2 years of options.

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Yeah im saying that 20 mill is too much, really is Howard or Holiday or Texeria going to get any more than that? the Only reason to pick up his 20 mil option is if they pal on keeping him 1` more year. if they want him longer, delcine it resign
him for 3 yr 40 mil ish.

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Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG

If this was similar to the Chacon incident, absolutely get him out, but that was insubordination and this just sounds like a misunderstanding of sorts.

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well excpet manny's altercation was with a co-worker and Chacon's was with his boss's boss.

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Originally Posted by dickay

Huh??? Are you actually saying its not a good idea to pick up his option?? Ludicrous.

Much wiser to pick up his option than resign him because he'll demand at least a 3 year deal, more likely 4 at close to that 20 mil figure. A few more mil now protects you as he ages and avoids the long term deal. They have 2 years of options.

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Not really, picking up the option would be a pretty poor idea IMO. I don't have a problem with signing him to a 3 year deal at around 10-15 mil per season, if Manny thinks hes getting 20 mil a season on the open market hes nuts. And they don't have two years of options, they have one option for two seasons.

remember guys, there are 2 20 million dollar options.

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Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG

If this was similar to the Chacon incident, absolutely get him out, but that was insubordination and this just sounds like a misunderstanding of sorts.

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Originally Posted by gRYFYN1

well excpet manny's altercation was with a co-worker and Chacon's was with his boss's boss.

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And Manny is a star-caliber bat while Chacon is a below average starter.

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Originally Posted by cartman00000001

remember guys, there are 2 20 million dollar options.

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I'm pretty sure its one two-year option, not two one-year options, although I could be wrong.

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Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG

I'm pretty sure its one two-year option, not two one-year options, although I could be wrong.

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It's two one-year options.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

It's two one-year options.

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ding ding!!

2 1 year options at 20 per.

Yeah..the BoSox are really struggling financially....their lack of money resources causes them to not be able to afford big contracts. Really unfair that they can't keep players like ManRam and his big money contract and build a quality team.

Sorry to change gears, but I heard Jim Bowden mention something about Chacon not being picked up by anybody, and I had no clue what he was talking about. Somehow I must've missed a big incident in MLB. Could someone clue me in???? Thx.

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Originally Posted by KowboyKoop

Yeah..the BoSox are really struggling financially....their lack of money resources causes them to not be able to afford big contracts. Really unfair that they can't keep players like ManRam and his big money contract and build a quality team.

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It has nothing to do with whether they can afford it, its whether they should.

They Yankees could afford Pavano's contract to, does that mean it was good?

Milwaukee can afford to pay Gagne 10 mil they year does that make that a good signing?

The dodgers aren;t going broke spending 18 mil on Andrew Jones does that mean they shouldv'e done that contact?

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Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

Sorry to change gears, but I heard Jim Bowden mention something about Chacon not being picked up by anybody, and I had no clue what he was talking about. Somehow I must've missed a big incident in MLB. Could someone clue me in???? Thx.

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He grabbed his GM by the neck and threw him to the ground.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

He grabbed his GM by the neck and threw him to the ground.

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:eek: Man, how the **** did I miss that one???

Were you living in a cave for the past week, that could do it?

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Originally Posted by gRYFYN1

It has nothing to do with whether they can afford it, its whether they should.

They Yankees could afford Pavano's contract to, does that mean it was good?

Milwaukee can afford to pay Gagne 10 mil they year does that make that a good signing?

The dodgers aren;t going broke spending 18 mil on Andrew Jones does that mean they shouldv'e done that contact?

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Manny is nothing like Pavano, Gagne, or A. Jones. The only question with Manny is whether he'll hit like an MVP or "only" one of the top 20 best hitters in baseball. Given their resources, there is no reason to not pick it up. If Manny had a history of injuries or was declining rapidly.....it'd be different. Given their unlimited budget, there is no risk.

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Originally Posted by gRYFYN1

It has nothing to do with whether they can afford it, its whether they should.

They Yankees could afford Pavano's contract to, does that mean it was good?

Milwaukee can afford to pay Gagne 10 mil they year does that make that a good signing?

The dodgers aren;t going broke spending 18 mil on Andrew Jones does that mean they shouldv'e done that contact?

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I'm pretty sure all the examples you just gave are not similar to Manny and the Red Sox' situation at all.

Pavano had one great year, hasn't done anything since. Yes, terrible contract.

Gagne was hurt and has been awful the past few years. Yes, not worth it.

Andruw Jones has been obviously declining both physically and talent-wise. Yes, not worth it.

Manny Ramirez has only delivered consistently excellent performances with only a slight decline the last two years due to aging.

Manny Ramirez >>>>>>> Gagne, Jones >>>>> Pavano

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Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG

Were you living in a cave for the past week, that could do it?

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Or it could be that since it occurred in Houston, a relatively small media market, and it's the Astros, not exactly an internationally or nationally popular team, it didn't really register.

Honestly, on the argument that Manny isn't worth it despite all his antics is pretty incredulous. The only reason people make a big deal out of it is because Boston is such a huge media market and reporters have to write about something day in and day out. Yeah, shoving an employee for doing his job is wrong but it shouldn't be the proverbial last straw in deciding whether to retain him or not. He's a little quirky, but he produces, is very popular with fans, and as far as I know a good teammate.

So...tell me.


If I go out on the street and shove a 64 year old man, it's okay because I'm quirky? No. I'd be arrested for assault.

If I shoved a 64 year old coworker, at BEST I'd be fired.

I dunno what the Sox should do, but this doesn't fall under 'quirky behavior.' Ramirez could EASILY have hurt the man. This is one of those things that, if they keep him around, can NOT happen again.

Yes, Chacon grabbed his GM by the neck...but on the other hand Wade is a much younger man and apparently provoked it. Ramirez acted without provocation.

Ignoring this or not dealing with it with appropriate harshness makes the Red Sox culpable if Ramirez gets 'quirky' again.

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Originally Posted by CatKnight

If I shoved a 64 year old coworker, at BEST I'd be fired.

Yes, Chacon grabbed his GM by the neck...but on the other hand Wade is a much younger man and apparently provoked it.

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1- sports players in general gain ALOT more latitude for behaviour than any other profession, they get in fights all the time

2- Ed Wade id 52, not alot younger

3- I'm not condoning Manny's behavior by any strech, its getting old regaurless of how good he is -but really many of his other issues have been overblown- and that is exactly why I think the Sox should look to replace him after the season.

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Originally Posted by CatKnight

So...tell me.


If I go out on the street and shove a 64 year old man, it's okay because I'm quirky? No. I'd be arrested for assault.

If I shoved a 64 year old coworker, at BEST I'd be fired.

I dunno what the Sox should do, but this doesn't fall under 'quirky behavior.' Ramirez could EASILY have hurt the man. This is one of those things that, if they keep him around, can NOT happen again.

Yes, Chacon grabbed his GM by the neck...but on the other hand Wade is a much younger man and apparently provoked it. Ramirez acted without provocation.

Ignoring this or not dealing with it with appropriate harshness makes the Red Sox culpable if Ramirez gets 'quirky' again.

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So you've never gotten into a heated argument with someone you know? They got into an argument, he got mad and pushed the other guy. Age should have nothing to do with it. If he was "only" 45 or so would it be looked at any differently? I'm pretty sure many workplaces would NOT fire you if you had a conflict with another worker. Ever heard of conflict resolution? Again, this is being blown way out of proportion.

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Originally Posted by gRYFYN1

1- sports players in general gain ALOT more latitude for behaviour than any other profession, they get in fights all the time

2- Ed Wade id 52, not alot younger

3- I'm not condoning Manny's behavior by any strech, its getting old regaurless of how good he is -but really many of his other issues have been overblown- and that is exactly why I think the Sox should look to replace him after the season.

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This is a totally objective question, something I don't know since I don't live in the East or know personally any Red Sox fans. Is the notion that Manny "has to go" a media invention? Or is this a general sentiment among Sox fans? Because as far as I know (and again, I don't know THAT much about Sox fans) there has been no clamoring by the so called Red Sox nation about Manny having to leave the Sox. As far as I know he's a beloved figure in New England. From what I've been hearing it's just a media thing.

And the Red Sox trying to waive/trade Manny in the past thing? I haven't heard anything like that since 2004...

This "Manny should go" thing is something I've really only heard on this thread and the one linked article...

looks to me like 2 1 year options

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Originally Posted by WHAK0985

This is a totally objective question, something I don't know since I don't live in the East or know personally any Red Sox fans. Is the notion that Manny "has to go" a media invention? Or is this a general sentiment among Sox fans? Because as far as I know (and again, I don't know THAT much about Sox fans) there has been no clamoring by the so called Red Sox nation about Manny having to leave the Sox. As far as I know he's a beloved figure in New England. From what I've been hearing it's just a media thing.

And the Red Sox trying to waive/trade Manny in the past thing? I haven't heard anything like that since 2004...

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The "Manny has to go" thing is really neither. The Red Sox media, NESN mostly, is calling for due punishment, a fine, a suspension, something, to be made public, so the rest of the team knows they won't tolerate it, not to mention is just looks plain bad if they don't. And I haven't even see any of it besides in this thread.

He demanded a trade in '05 and '06 too, which obviously never happened.

As a Yankee fan, I'd like to strongly recommend that the Red Sox follow that advice and kick him loose. Yep, guy's a loser. He's only hurting your team. Get rid of him. Please.

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Originally Posted by WHAK0985

So you've never gotten into a heated argument with someone you know? They got into an argument, he got mad and pushed the other guy. Age should have nothing to do with it. If he was "only" 45 or so would it be looked at any differently? I'm pretty sure many workplaces would NOT fire you if you had a conflict with another worker. Ever heard of conflict resolution? Again, this is being blown way out of proportion.

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Then you may need more experience with the workplace, my friend.

Arguing? Probably not. SHOVING? Yes, I would be gone.

Anyway, what argument are we talking about? The guy said he might have trouble getting the tickets. THAT is feedback. What Ramirez did was completely unprovoked.

As I said, I don't know what the Sox should do. I understand the sentiment that he's too valuable to get rid of (though I find it disturbing that he IS being treated differently from Chacon, who was at least provoked into his attack.)

I'll repeat my above statement: If the Sox keep him (no doubt), and because they don't deal with this harshly (again, probable) there is another incident, then the Sox are culpable for letting it happen.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

This "Manny should go" thing is something I've really only heard on this thread and the one linked article...

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agreed. Red Sox Nation loves Manny, and "Manny being Manny" is something to describe his.......antics (for a lack of a better word). The whole thing is it would be really hard to replace Manny in the lineup at his price. The only LF I can think of off the top of my head that could come close is Carlos Lee, but he wouldn't play the wall like Manny can. In Fenway, Manny is the best at playing the wall. He plays balls off the wall like a 2B...just flipping it as fast as he can to the infield.

Red Sox fans are rabid. I watch every game, and live and die on every pitch. Tek struck out last night in the 9th, and I went around the house yelling. This is normal. My GF yells just as much...if not MORE SO if they do bad.

I'm NOT part of Red Sox nation, or Yankee town (if that's a phrase), so my bias is neither way. But here's what I don't get. Does great talent mean any behavior is OK? I'll bet a lot of the Red Sox nation folks defending Manny are also the loudest to scream at Bond's behavior. Seems like if that were true, it would be hypocritical.

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Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

But here's what I don't get. Does great talent mean any behavior is OK?

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Not any behavior but talent gives alot more latitude in any situation in sports. This is nothing new, That's exactly why Bonds was a sulky jackass and still got 18 mil a year from SF.

Talent is why Latrell Sprewell got a job after attacking his coach.
Talent is why Elijah Dukes is getting a chance In Washington
Talent is why the Cowboys Traded to get Adam Jones.

The list goes on and on and on and on.

the biggest difference between Bonds and Manny is Bonds alienated himself from his own teammates where Manny is well liked in the clubhouse.

None of us knows what excatly happened. "A shove" can be a few different things. Not trying to say that Manny's behavior is ok, it clearly is not, but we don't know if Manny pushed the guy down in the middle of the floor or if McCormick turned away from Manny and pushed his shoulder to turn him back around or what.

It's up to the Red Sox to deal with this. I don't recall hearing other stories of Manny being violent towards anyone. I don't think he's a time bomb waiting to go off (Milton Bradley). Maybe I'm putting myself out there, but I've shoved someone before and I suspect that most of you have too. And none of us seem to be threats to society.

It is a work place, and that makes it different, but MLB is a different workplace than most. Nobody gets fired for a bench clearing brawl. Suspended maybe, but not fired. Not too many jobs will let you flip off the customers as often as professional sports do.

Maybe there should be more strict rules regarding these outbursts, of all types.

I've done a lot more than shove. Of course, I've also had to restrain people doing a lot more than shoving. And we don't know the whole story here. We don't know in which manner Manny was informed.