Re: Bavasi's giant mulligan
In regards to "letting Jose Guillen go," I don't think that was a bad idea. The terrible part about it, if I remember correctly, was that Bavasi didn't offer Guillen salary arbitration, which prevented the Mariners from receiving any kind of draft pick compensation. Everyone knew Guillen wouldn't have taken an offer from the M's because he was looking for, and had, long term offers. But Bavasi still failed to realize the value in picking up extra draft picks in this year's draft.
And also, the trade for Vidro is unquestionably in the bad list. Yeah, you have a good point in that Snelling and Fruto have amounted to nothing so far. BUT you forget that Vidro has caused all sorts of terrible roster/lineup construction issues ever since he arrived in Seattle. Vidro batting third in a Major League lineup?! At the expense of Jeff Clement for the majority of the year? Inexcusable.
Re: Bavasi's giant mulligan
if ands and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.
Re: Bavasi's giant mulligan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
asianinvasion
If Bavasi had a big undo button, who knows what would have happened.
First with the bad moves;
Trade Carlos Guillen
Sign Rich Aurillia
Sign Scott Spiezio
Sign Jeff Weaver
Signing Carl Everett
Trading Soriano
Signing Silva
Turning Morrow to reliever
Signing Washburn and Batista
Hiring McLaren
Signing Sexson
Letting Jose Guillen go
Giving Joh extension
Trading Jaime Moyer
The unknowns
Trade for Bedard
Trade for Vidro (Other than the salaries, this trade is a wash. Snelling isnt on the Nats and Fruto hasnt really amounted to anything)
Beltre signing (He's been alright)
Not signing Kyle Loshe
The good
Letting Gil Meche go
Possible 2008 lineup
1. CF-Ichiro Suzuki
2. 2B-Jose Lopez
3. DH-Raul Ibanez
4. RF-Jose Guillen
5. 1B-Carlos Guillen
6. 3B-Adrian Beltre
7. C- Kenji Johjima/Jeff Clement
8. LF-Adam Jones
9. SS-Yuniesky Betancourt
Rotation
1. Felix Hernandez
2. Free Agent
3. Jaime Moyer
4. Kyle Loshe
5. Brandon Morrow
Bullpen
JJ Putz
George Sherrill
Rafael Soriano
Sean Green
Ryan Rowland-Smith
Arthur Rhodes
Cha Sung Baek
RA Dickey
Have you ever watched Guillen try to play first base? Trust me, he wouldn't be the first baseman there.
Re: Bavasi's giant mulligan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
asianinvasion
If Bavasi had a big undo button, who knows what would have happened.
First with the bad moves;
Trade Carlos Guillen
Sign Rich Aurillia
Sign Scott Spiezio
Sign Jeff Weaver
Signing Carl Everett
Trading Soriano
Signing Silva
Turning Morrow to reliever
Signing Washburn and Batista
Hiring McLaren
Signing Sexson
Letting Jose Guillen go
Giving Joh extension
Trading Jaime Moyer
The unknowns
Trade for Bedard
Trade for Vidro (Other than the salaries, this trade is a wash. Snelling isnt on the Nats and Fruto hasnt really amounted to anything)
Beltre signing (He's been alright)
Not signing Kyle Loshe
The good
Letting Gil Meche go
Possible 2008 lineup
1. CF-Ichiro Suzuki
2. 2B-Jose Lopez
3. DH-Raul Ibanez
4. RF-Jose Guillen
5. 1B-Carlos Guillen
6. 3B-Adrian Beltre
7. C- Kenji Johjima/Jeff Clement
8. LF-Adam Jones
9. SS-Yuniesky Betancourt
Rotation
1. Felix Hernandez
2. Free Agent
3. Jaime Moyer
4. Kyle Loshe
5. Brandon Morrow
Bullpen
JJ Putz
George Sherrill
Rafael Soriano
Sean Green
Ryan Rowland-Smith
Arthur Rhodes
Cha Sung Baek
RA Dickey
A couple of changes. Move "trade for Jose Vidro" to the "bad" list. Like WHAK said, it's true that Snelling and Fruto are both not on the Nats roster anymore but the willingness in the first place was stupid. Vidro was old, in the National League and could barely field or run due to knee injuries. A second change would be moving "Signing Beltre" to the "Good" list. Beltre is super underrated. He's solid with the bat, much more than people think, and provides an outstanding glove. The final change would be moving "Not signing Kyle Lohse" to the good list. Lohse sucks, more than Silva, and would have been paid just as much.
Re: Bavasi's giant mulligan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Coach Owens
The final change would be moving "Not signing Kyle Lohse" to the good list. Lohse sucks, more than Silva, and would have been paid just as much.
Are you aware that it took a long-term commitment and at least $44 million to sign Carlos Silva, and he is 3-8 with a 5.79 ERA (69 ERA+), while it took a one-year deal and an eleventh of that price to sign Kyle Lohse, and he is 9-2 with a 3.63 ERA, which is roughly a 115 ERA+.
Yeah, Kyle Lohse sure sucks more than Silva, and clearly, committing long term and big money to an average major league pitcher is much better than signing an average major league pitcher to a cheap one year deal. :rolleyes:
Re: Bavasi's giant mulligan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Are you aware that it took a long-term commitment and at least $44 million to sign Carlos Silva, and he is 3-8 with a 5.79 ERA (69 ERA+), while it took a one-year deal and an eleventh of that price to sign Kyle Lohse, and he is 9-2 with a 3.63 ERA, which is roughly a 115 ERA+.
Yeah, Kyle Lohse sure sucks more than Silva, and clearly, committing long term and big money to an average major league pitcher is much better than signing an average major league pitcher to a cheap one year deal. :rolleyes:
That's why Jeff Sullivan, over at Lookout Landing, said both "And since nobody wants to talk about Carlos Silva or Kyle Lohse on purpose" and "In the race for Carlos Silva in which the loser ends up with Kyle Lohse, nobody wins." Jeff is a smart guy. Plus Lohse has a career ERA+ of 96. That's below average. He sucks.
Re: Bavasi's giant mulligan
96 ERA+ is just about average. It's slightly below. If a pitcher has an ERA+ between 95-105, they are basically a league average pitcher.
And I'm sure the Cardinals really think they lost with Kyle Lohse.
I guess you're just not grasping that the Mariners committed big money and 4 years to Silva, while the Cardinals committed little and 1 year to Lohse, so even if Lohse didn't do good, it wouldn't be any real loss.
Re: Bavasi's giant mulligan
Lohse is also super inconsistent. Look at the ERA+ for his individual seasons.
Re: Bavasi's giant mulligan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Coach Owens
Lohse is also super inconsistent. Look at the ERA+ for his individual seasons.
If by inconsistent you mean generally in the 90-105 range, then sure. Aside from 2006 when he posted a ghastly 78, when he split time between Minnesota and Cincy that season, hes been quite consistent. Sure, he isn't great, but hes solid and cheap (this season).
Re: Bavasi's giant mulligan
Remember this too regarding Lohse and the one year contract: Bavasi signed Jeff Weaver to a 8+ million, one year deal for 2007 and that bombed completely. Maybe he still felt the sting from that debacle. But taking a one year gamble like that has so much less risk than any kind of four year deal for a pitcher like Silva.
His signing reminds me a little of the Diamondbacks' signing of Russ Ortiz a few years back. He had some good, but not spectacular, years with the Giants and Braves and then signed a 4 year, 33 million dollar contract with the DBacks and immediately flopped terribly. The DBacks bit the bullet and released him a year and a half into the deal. This is from his wikipedia page: "With nearly $22 million dollars and over two and half years remaining on the contract, Arizona's cut of Ortiz is thought to be the most expensive release in Major League Baseball history."
Now THAT takes balls. Especially from a baseball executive. No wonder that Arizona organization is so highly regarded. How many GMs in baseball could have done that? CERTAINLY not Bavasi.
Re: Bavasi's giant mulligan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WHAK0985
Now THAT takes balls. Especially from a baseball executive. No wonder that Arizona organization is so highly regarded. How many GMs in baseball could have done that? CERTAINLY not Bavasi.
Maybe the new GM will. Totally doubt it though.
Re: Bavasi's giant mulligan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
YEAH DAAAAWG
If by inconsistent you mean generally in the 90-105 range, then sure. Aside from 2006 when he posted a ghastly 78, when he split time between Minnesota and Cincy that season, hes been quite consistent. Sure, he isn't great, but hes solid and cheap (this season).
Really? So dropping by 10 ERA+ points (or whatever you call them) and then rising by 10 the next season and then dropping again is consistent?
Re: Bavasi's giant mulligan
That's irrelevent. Kyle Lohse has vastly outperformed Carlos Silva this season, and he was way less expensive and needed way less commitment.
Re: Bavasi's giant mulligan
No it's not consistent. HGM made a mistake. Of course, that won't stop HGM from ripping Dusty Baker on a smaller mistake. It's also relevant, because the Mariners have merely been lucky this year in getting the good kyle lohse.
Re: Bavasi's giant mulligan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
belial
No it's not consistent. HGM made a mistake.
No, I didn't. Reread the thread, please.
Quote:
Of course, that won't stop HGM from ripping Dusty Baker on a smaller mistake.
A manager not knowing his player's stats and saying something that is untrue is different than some dude on an internet site saying something not true. But, if you reread the thread, you'll notice I never said anything untrue, and you've made the mistake in your haste to discredit me.
Re: Bavasi's giant mulligan
You made a mistake in calling it irrelevant. Don't worry about what I'm doing, you have no clue how my mind ticks.
Re: Bavasi's giant mulligan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
belial
You made a mistake in calling it irrelevant. Don't worry about what I'm doing, you have no clue how my mind ticks.
Calling his consistency or lack thereof irrelevent is not a mistake. For this discussion, it isn't relevant, as both Silva and Lohse have been inconsistent in there careers, as all pitchers that put a lot of balls into play tend to be. The fact of the matter is Silva took 4 years and $40+ million, while Lohse took 1 year, $4 mil, and Lohse has been better, and was a much better signing.
Re: Bavasi's giant mulligan
I've made mistakes that worked out in my favor. The result has no bearing on if the decision was sound based on the knowledge available.
Re: Bavasi's giant mulligan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
belial
I've made mistakes that worked out in my favor. The result has no bearing on if the decision was sound based on the knowledge available.
Signing a mediocre pitcher to a 4 year, $48 million deal when you could've waited to get his price down, or if he got signed to another team, grabbed another, similar pitcher for much cheaper, isn't a sound decision.
Re: Bavasi's giant mulligan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Coach Owens
Really? So dropping by 10 ERA+ points (or whatever you call them) and then rising by 10 the next season and then dropping again is consistent?
10 "points" isn't a huge difference. If he was all over the place, 20 up, 10 down, 5 up, 15 down, etc., then he'd be inconsistent, but hes stayed in the same general range his whole career besides the year he split between Minny and Cincy, and even then he was back to his career norm in his time with Cincy.
