Men Who Can Play The Game

(Inspired by comments from HoustonGM.)

I can't tell you how many times I've been to major league ball games and found players who didn't know how to play the game. I mean, I've seen some weird sh-t out there in professional games.

How many times I have seen batters come to the batters box holding the thick end of the bat and trying to swing with the handle end? Or the time that Cecil Fielder came up to the plate with his bat in one hand and a foot-long hoagie in the other?

I'm still laughing over the time that Mike Stanton came to the plate wearing his athletic cup on the outside of his uniform. How many times did we watch Juan Pierre watch a fly ball fall to the ground in simple amazement, like a child, as his teammates screamed at him to make some effort to catch the ball?

I can still remember the great Kent Tekulve, who when presented with the ball, began chewing on it as it were some sort of food.

Joe Torre of the Dodgers is unhappy that many of the Dodgers think their bats are toys, and sometimes, one batter will follow another to the plate and they'll reenact the lightsabre scene from "Return of the Jedi".

What's wrong with these players? They don't know how to play the game.

One of the marks of a great player is that he knows how to play the game. He knows that there are nine innings, and that the object of the game is to score runs, and that the team with the most runs at the end of nine innings wins. That you swing at the little ball when it comes to you, and that you catch it when a batter sends it flying in the air. That the glove is worn on the hand, and not on the head. Clearly, mastery of these simple fundamentals is essential to a long baseball career.

Don't believe me? Check out some of these comments from baseball experts:

1. Minnesota GM Ron Gardenhire: (on David Eckstein) - "He knows how to play."

2. Michael Cuddler of the Twins: "Our organization knows how to play baseball."

3. Baltimore manager Frank Robinson (on Cal Ripken Jr.) - "I see my guy day in, day out, so I can really appreciate him and know he knows how to play the game."

4. Carlos Zambrano of the Cubs on Kosuke Fukudome - "The guy knows how to play baseball."

5. Reds GM Wayne Krivsky on Bubba Crosby - "He's a left-handed batter and really knows how to play."

6. Chone Figgins on the Rays Nathan Haynes - "Nate knows the game, and he knows how to play."

7. A scouting report on Jeff Conine - "(Conine) can play first, play the outfield, he's not very athletic but he knows how to play the game."

8. Boston manager Terry Francona on Justin Pedroia - "He knows how to play the game."

9. University of George baseball coach David Pemo on prospect Chris Nelson - "He just knows how to play baseball."

10. Gary Sheffield of the Tigers on Carlos Guillen - "He's a great guy, a smart hitter and he knows how to play the game."

I hope that someday, everyone will know how to play baseball. Really, it's not that hard. Easier than cricket, anyway.

--Pet

LOL - so you read HGM's personal rant on that, too. Funny stuff here, Pet.

having coached 6 and 7 year olds knowing "how to play the game" is a HUGE part of it!!!


(also, i think i saw that came where Cecil Cooper came up to bat with a hoagie in his hand, actually that may have happened alot)

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Originally Posted by yankee hater

Oh God. Actually, I would have posted a comment to HGMs LJ rant, but I really didn't want to make an account - LJ sucks.

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I'm pretty sure you can comment anonymously without signing up, although I'd prefer if you did that you identified yourself in your comment.

So, what kind of comment would you have posted? Are you saying that this "knows how to play the game" nonsense isn't just meaningless crap?

By the way, **** has been uncensored? Or am I just delusional and it was never censored?

Oh, what the heck? crap? Lol. ****. Okay, apparantly, it's only uncensored if followed by a question mark!

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So, what kind of comment would you have posted? Are you saying that this "knows how to play the game" nonsense isn't just meaningless crap?

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I don't think it's meaningless ****. Basically they are saying that they have a greater understanding of the game and its intriquicies than most players. They don't make the same mental mistakes some do in the pitch count, on the bases, or in the field.

These guys are professionals, they all know the rules and how the game is played for the most part. There are however some who understand it's finer points....and often go onto coaching and managing later in their careers.

It's actually fairly simple to understand, but another one of those intangibles that statistics can't grasp.

It is meaningless. Everybody that makes it to the major leagues knows how to play the game. Period. If they want to say that a player is very intelligent, doesn't make many mental mistakes, etc. then they should say that, instead of repeating a tired, meaningless cliche.

Brian Bannister is a pitcher who admire for his intelligence. It would be stupid to say "Brian Bannister knows how to play the game", because that means nothing as every single major league player (and minor league player) knows how to play the game. You would not get drafted if you didn't know how to play, and if by some reason you did, you certainly would not make it to the bigs. Instead, I'd say, "Brian Bannister understands statistical concepts such as BABIP, and is a real student of the game", or simply "Brian Bannister is really friggen smart."

Actually - maybe this is an assumption, but: I've always assumed it was used as a blanket statement, to cover players that master the fundamentals - running hard on ground balls; putting in their best effort every at bat (here's where 'grinding' comes in, another tired tem); good baserunning in general - tags up when there's a weak outfield arm, etc.

Examples of the opposite would be, players that put themselves and personal goals/stats above the team; players that mosey towards hits their way; players that refuse to bat in spot in the lineup, refuse to play a position, or refuse to pitch relief/non-closer situations; players that are the negative clubhouse presence, or aloof, or don't enjoy themselves.

I can definitely see why we pick on this statement, but just on the above, you can start to see players that don't fit some of these: sluggers like Bonds, Manny Ramirez, maybe Thomas or Delgado? Players that aren't happy with their playing time or position/lineup spot - think of Alfonso Soriano. Guys that have issues off the field, or who throw stuff at umpires and get suspended, like Elijah Dukes, or Dmitri Young? And, of course, the guys using 'roids to gain an advantage. Obviously they can play the game - sometimes rise to stardom. They just don't play it the way that managers/owners/other players/commentators would like to see.

I think the simple point - and cause of much of this generalization - is that managers, owners, commentators - these guys can't out and out say 'you know, I played with Ken Griffey, and that guy will sit on the DL for 3 weeks if he breaks a fingernail.' They can't say 'these kids are really putting on a show, with an almost .500 record, despite no big-name stars and management that obviously doesn't care to spend money on them.' They can't say 'You know, when I think of Manny Ramirez making $33,000 or so per at bat, and then see him jog up the line for an easy out instead of keeping pressure on the opposition...well, it just makes me sick.'

When confronted with a microphone and trying to censor yourself, you use euphemisms and bland statements like this. It kind of sucks, because we hear a continual looping reel of the same tired phrases...and they lose their meaning, like this one has. After you've watched many games, and listened to so many people speak, it begins to really bother you such it is such a nebulous/meaningless term. But, what can you do? They're not allowed to say anything and everything, and not everyone watching the game on a weekend wants to hear SaberSpeak.

There is a meaning to what they are saying, problem is they are just dumbing it down so much, instead of saying the a player focus's well, understands how to take good routes to the ball etc, they just say " he knows how to play".


Its annoying, beacause they are talking in such broad general terms that it belies thier "expert" status and passes no actual information on to the viewer/reader.

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Originally Posted by gRYFYN1

Its annoying, beacause they are talking in such broad general terms that it belies thier "expert" status and passes no actual information on to the viewer/reader.

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Exactly. They (and I'm talking about "analysts", "experts", and the like here, unlike Petrel's examples of players/managers) claim to be "expert analysts", yet offer no expertise or analysis...they just repeat boring cliches that impart no information to the audience.

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Originally Posted by gRYFYN1

There is a meaning to what they are saying, problem is they are just dumbing it down so much, instead of saying the a player focus's well, understands how to take good routes to the ball etc, they just say " he knows how to play".


Its annoying, beacause they are talking in such broad general terms that it belies thier "expert" status and passes no actual information on to the viewer/reader.

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So you are all saying the same thing. These 'cliches' as you call them DO have meaning and we know what they are trying to say but don't like how they are saying it and wish they would elaborate more.

I agree it would be much more intriguing if they explained examples, such as the player that always puts themselves in the right position on the field without having to be 'micro-managed'. Or the player who makes the heads up base-running play, or the catcher who understands the batter AND his pitcher and calls the right game.

One can argue the same point when they say a hitter 'knows how to hit'. Well using your simple logic applied here, its uhh..see ball, swing bat, hit ball. Obviously the manager is saying more than that. Maybe that the batter understands pitch count and studies the pitcher, or that the batter understands technique and can spot holes or bad habits when developing, or that they see the ball well and adjust to it, or any combination of those and more.

We all know what they are trying to say but it doesn't tell us much.

The thing is there ARE saying nothing, only because we have the ability to analyze whats happening do we understand.

Tell a 7 year old, Torii Hunter is a great center fielder because he "know how to play", and you've just told him nothing. Tell him Ted Williams hit .406 cuz he "really know how to hit" is 100% useless.

They may as well sit there and spout gibberish like Steve Carrel from Bruce Almighty while the clip is playing, and they will pass on the same amount of information.

Watch Ron Jawarski on NFL match-up, he actually analyzes the plays and tell you WHY something happened. Not a John Mayer-esque "and that happened"

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Originally Posted by gRYFYN1

Watch Ron Jawarski on NFL match-up, he actually analyzes the plays and tell you WHY something happened.

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Baseball has a real lack of analysts that analyze, in the mainstream media at least.

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Originally Posted by gRYFYN1

The thing is there ARE saying nothing, only because we have the ability to analyze whats happening do we understand.

Tell a 7 year old, Torii Hunter is a great center fielder because he "know how to play", and you've just told him nothing. Tell him Ted Williams hit .406 cuz he "really know how to hit" is 100% useless.

They may as well sit there and spout gibberish like Steve Carrel from Bruce Almighty while the clip is playing, and they will pass on the same amount of information.

Watch Ron Jawarski on NFL match-up, he actually analyzes the plays and tell you WHY something happened. Not a John Mayer-esque "and that happened"

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OK...if you respected my car knowledge similar to the way many have some kind of respect or appreciation for baseball analysts or coaches...if you were looking for a car and I said to you that one is a junker, or that one is a lemon...without saying anything you know what I mean.

I agree, they are not saying anything specific......but to *most* of the people watching baseball tonight and to everyone in this forum, we all know what they mean. Are we that bored that we have to debate something this dumb? I guess we are, i've chimed in now three times about it :(

My only contention really is that the people that repeat this tired drivel claim to be "expert analysts." When I hear an expert analyst, I expect to hear some...you know...expert analysis. If they're going to repeat this stuff, then they shouldn't claim to be experts. They should claim to be...staters of the obvious.

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Originally Posted by dickay

OK...if you respected my car knowledge similar to the way many have some kind of respect or appreciation for baseball analysts or coaches...if you were looking for a car and I said to you that one is a junker, or that one is a lemon...without saying anything you know what I mean.
(

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But if I asked you why a Porshe is such a good car and you said "It really runs well" , what informantion have you given me.

it's sad how many players really DON'T know how to play the game.

if your fast and you fly out your an idiot.

an outfielder that throws the ball to the wrong base allowing the hitter to get to 2nd and taking away doubleplay possibilities is an idiot.

trying to make it on the fly with a throw from the wall to home. you guessed it an idiot.

not understanding that a guy having problems finding the plate will most likely throw balls and you shouldnt swing. again idiot.


there are alot of heads up ballplayers. dont assume that just because they made the majors though that they all know how to play because they don't.

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Originally Posted by gRYFYN1

But if I asked you why a Porshe is such a good car and you said "It really runs well" , what informantion have you given me.

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But if I said, "it's got a great engine" that does tell you something and is IMO a better comparison to the baseball quote of "he knows how to play the game".

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there are alot of heads up ballplayers. dont assume that just because they made the majors though that they all know how to play because they don't.

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I couldn't agree with you more but don't be surprised when someone takes your claim that "they all don't know how to play the game" and trivializes it to say that you mean all players don't know their way to first base.

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Originally Posted by dabruinss

it's sad how many players really DON'T know how to play the game.

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Every single Major League Baseball player knows how to play the game of baseball. You cannot become a professional athlete without knowing how to play the game you play. It's impossible.

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if your fast and you fly out your an idiot.

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What?

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an outfielder that throws the ball to the wrong base allowing the hitter to get to 2nd and taking away doubleplay possibilities is an idiot.

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Or a mistake.

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qtrying to make it on the fly with a throw from the wall to home. you guessed it an idiot.

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Even if you have that ability?

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not understanding that a guy having problems finding the plate will most likely throw balls and you shouldnt swing. again idiot.

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Or a free swinger.

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there are alot of heads up ballplayers. dont assume that just because they made the majors though that they all know how to play because they don't.

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Yes. They do know how to play the game. They may not be as good as other players are. They may make some mistakes. But making a mistake does not mean you do not know how to play baseball. It means you're a human being.

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Originally Posted by dickay

But if I said, "it's got a great engine" that does tell you something and is IMO a better comparison to the baseball quote of "he knows how to play the game".

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I don't think that's a better comparison. Some cars have bad engines, some have good engines. Every baseball player knows how to play baseball.

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I couldn't agree with you more but don't be surprised when someone takes your claim that "they all don't know how to play the game" and trivializes it to say that you mean all players don't know their way to first base.

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You can't possibly equate making mistakes with not knowing how to play. It's ludicrous.

o.k. houstongm your 18 years old. you really havent been around long enough. the truth is there are guys that can't play but they get by because they have a specialty. some are great at defense while others are total power hitters and have no idea what a glove even is let alone which base to throw it to. you also have world class sprinters playing just because they are fast. how many players with world class speed cant even steal a base. how many power hitters cant hit a ball. why is it catchers make the best managers. they are most likely the ones that knew everything as a kid and they never lost it.

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Originally Posted by dabruinss

o.k. houstongm your 18 years old. you really havent been around long enough.

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Entirely irrelevent.

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the truth is there are guys that can't play but they get by because they have a specialty.

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This does not equal not knowing how to play baseball.

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some are great at defense while others are total power hitters and have no idea what a glove even is let alone which base to throw it to.

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Hyperbole at its best.

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you also have world class sprinters playing just because they are fast. how many players with world class speed cant even steal a base. how many power hitters cant hit a ball.

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None of this is not knowing how to play baseball. You seem to be confusing having limited skills with a lack of knowledge. Every fast guy who made it to the bigs because of his speed still knows how to play baseball. Every fast guy that isn't good at getting jumps or reading pitchers and thus not good at stealing bases still knows how to play baseball. Every power hitter who can't hit for average still knows how to play baseball.

By your fabulous logic, there is no baseball player that knows how to play, since they all have weaknesses. I guess Ted Williams doesn't know how to play baseball because he sucked defensively.

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why is it catchers make the best managers. they are most likely the ones that knew everything as a kid and they never lost it.

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This is entirely irrelevent to the discussion. Some players are more intelligent than others, some players know more about the ins and outs of the game, but they all know how to play. Also, managing also requires communication skills, and catchers play the position that requires the highest level of communication, which is part of the reason why they tend to make the best managers.

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Originally Posted by yankee hater

There really is a difference between knowing how to the play the game and playing it well.

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Yes, there really is. That is why when a player plays well, I like to hear "He's a good player" not "He knows how to play the game" because many players know how to play the game but aren't good. In fact, every single professional baseball player knows how to play the game, but most aren't average or better major league players.

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Take chess for instance - Many people know the moves, and the rules, but 'knowing how to play the game' can make one a grandmaster. Some of the dumbest people I know can kick a smarter person's butt in chess, simply by retraining their mind to deal with the game.

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Chess is a strategical game. Knowing the ins and outs of the strategies and thus being a better chess player does not mean that lesser chess players don't know how to play chess. It means they aren't as good at it. Every person who plays chess knows how to play chess. If a chess analyst said about a good player, "He knows how to play chess" that would be terrible analysis and tell you absolutely nothing.

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But it isn't really obvious, since you can't grasp the concept.

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Saying that a baseball player knows how to play baseball..or perhaps my favorite, saying a baseball player is a baseball player, isn't stating the obvious?

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Yes, there really is. That is why when a player plays well, I like to hear "He's a good player" not "He knows how to play the game" because many players know how to play the game but aren't good. In fact, every single professional baseball player knows how to play the game, but most aren't average or better major league players.

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Check mate. This pretty much bullseye the fact you are taking the statement far too literally. I think you are pretty intelligent too and you know what they are saying but you are simply clinging onto it out because you are too stubborn to admit so. Maybe I'm giving you too much credit and you really don't get it.

More catchers become major league managers than other positions simply 'because they know how to play the game'.

nuff said.

I feel like i'm talking to my 19 year old son dasox

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Originally Posted by dabruinss

I feel like i'm talking to my 19 year old son dasox

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well...i've had alot of PC time the last couple days and got pretty tired of seeing him pick others posts apart and question each and every point twisting them around for what seems like pure enjoyment....so I decided to do the same to his posts and probably wound him up a bit too tight lol. :D

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Originally Posted by yankee hater

See you're being entirely too nitpicky and literal. We should all suffer reading thru pointless rant after pointless rant because you would prefer if the wording was different? Gawd.

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Nobody forces you to read anything. Also, I'm not the only person that doesn't like hearing tired drivel from analysts. As you can see from this thread.

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Originally Posted by yankee hater

It's not obvious, apparently, because you don't understand that when we say 'he knows how to play the game', we don't mean he literally knows how to play. A fact that everyone else seems to inherently know.

You whine about people nitpicking over vorp, so why nitpick over a cliche?

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I know what they "mean", but really, it means so many different things to different people, which is another reason why it gives no information. Some people say it to talk about players that "play above their tools." Some people say it to talk about smart guys like Kevin Youkilis. Some people say it to talk about guys that hustle a lot. It has varied meanings depending on who is saying it and who the subject is that they're talking about.

My point is that "expert analysts" shouldn't use it. They should give expert analysis. Or not call themselves experts.

I don't really care when a manager says it about a player, or a player says it about another play. I care when people claim to be experts and then resort to nothing but meaningless cliches that provide no information.

Call it nitpicking, whatever, but I prefer that baseball's expert analysts give expert analysis.

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Originally Posted by dickay

Check mate. This pretty much bullseye the fact you are taking the statement far too literally. I think you are pretty intelligent too and you know what they are saying but you are simply clinging onto it out because you are too stubborn to admit so. Maybe I'm giving you too much credit and you really don't get it.

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I get it perfectly, but I expect better from "expert analysts." I don't see what's so wrong with that.

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Originally Posted by yankee hater

Really, if I can't whine about vorp's name, then why whine about the wording of a cliche, which you know wasn't meant to be taken that literally. It implies intangibles and just making the most of his ability. They generally use this term on players who don't have raw talent but are good ball players. We can't quantify what makes them successful since they may not be fast or strong or anything that can be physically measured, but they produce well on the field.

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But then they also say it about other players for which the above isn't true, which just leads me back to my original point - it doesn't really mean anything.

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What is your idea of expert analysis? Right, the football analysis.

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That wasn't my example.

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Do you realize that all the college players are analyzed and yet a 5th or 6th rounder will become a superstar? I hear the term football player and grinder in football games too. Watch some, and educate yourself before you say it's isolated to MLB.

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Show me where I said it's isolated to the MLB.

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Watching a few segments of sports that probably don't know anything about anyway doesn't mean you're educated on them.

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Show me where I claimed to be educated on any sport besides baseball.

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You want expert analysis - This player who knows how to play the game is good for reasons that we can't explain. Sometimes experts even don't have all the answers.

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That's horrible analysis. Kevin Youkilis was the subject of the statement that sparked my LJ post.

Instead of such insightful analysis like "He's a baseball player that can play", expert analysis is more along the lines of..."Kevin Youkilis has great command of the strike zone. He has good plate coverage and a great eye and ability to discern balls and strikes. He's reaching the age that many players peak with their power abilities, and could be on his way to a power breakout." You know...something that actually gives you information about the player. There is absolutely no player ever that useful information about why he's good can't be given.

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Originally Posted by yankee hater

You want expert analysis - This player who knows how to play the game is good for reasons that we can't explain. Sometimes experts even don't have all the answers.

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But generally these can be explained, the "experts" just chose not to bother and use any thought process and just say "because", which is essentially what they are doing ... There is only two people in the world that are allowed to give you that answer to a legitimate question.

Perhaps he could have pointed out that Youkilis excels due to a high level of concetraion, quailty body placement on defence, knowing pitch patters/tendencies in the batters box, great balance .... any one of those would have been far far far far more worthy to mention than the fact he knows how many outs there are in an ininng.

While Im not saying they ALL do this (i actually saw an amazing bit on BBT on how dramatically diffent Travis Halfner stand in the box now as opposed to 2006) but there just no reason for it.

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Originally Posted by gRYFYN1

While Im not saying they ALL do this (i actually saw an amazing bit on BBT on how dramatically diffent Travis Halfner stand in the box now as opposed to 2006) but there just no reason for it.

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I saw that too. It was pretty good.

And yeah, it's not as if every analyst does this all the time. They all do have some real analysis, but I think the meaningless cliches are way too overdone. If those were sprinkled in every once in a while in between good, solid analysis, I wouldn't notice them, nor care. It's that mainstream "expert analysis" is cliches and nonsense, sprinkled with some analysis.

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Originally Posted by yankee hater

The point to all this is - HGM is being entirely too literal. 'Knowing how to play the game the right way' means the player can achieve things beyond his actual athletic level in comparision with others that possess similiar athletic skills.

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agree and agree :)

I don't think that expecting more than cliches from expert analysis is being too literal. I also don't see how "knowing how to play the game the right way" can make a player succeed beyond his actual athletic ability (being more intelligent, yes, but then why not just say that?), although I know that's what they mean.

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Originally Posted by yankee hater

It is not even intelligence - I guess the best word is aptitude.

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Which is...skill...

I don't buy into the idea that players can be better than they're skill level. Better than their athletic tools, yes, I suppose, but that's because there's more to baseball than just athletics, and those that play "better than their athletic ability" have heightened skills in other aspects of the game.