Re: Men Who Can Play The Game
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Originally Posted by
dickay
Check mate. This pretty much bullseye the fact you are taking the statement far too literally. I think you are pretty intelligent too and you know what they are saying but you are simply clinging onto it out because you are too stubborn to admit so. Maybe I'm giving you too much credit and you really don't get it.
I get it perfectly, but I expect better from "expert analysts." I don't see what's so wrong with that.
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Originally Posted by yankee hater
Really, if I can't whine about vorp's name, then why whine about the wording of a cliche, which you know wasn't meant to be taken that literally. It implies intangibles and just making the most of his ability. They generally use this term on players who don't have raw talent but are good ball players. We can't quantify what makes them successful since they may not be fast or strong or anything that can be physically measured, but they produce well on the field.
But then they also say it about other players for which the above isn't true, which just leads me back to my original point - it doesn't really mean anything.
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What is your idea of expert analysis? Right, the football analysis.
That wasn't my example.
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Do you realize that all the college players are analyzed and yet a 5th or 6th rounder will become a superstar? I hear the term football player and grinder in football games too. Watch some, and educate yourself before you say it's isolated to MLB.
Show me where I said it's isolated to the MLB.
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Watching a few segments of sports that probably don't know anything about anyway doesn't mean you're educated on them.
Show me where I claimed to be educated on any sport besides baseball.
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You want expert analysis - This player who knows how to play the game is good for reasons that we can't explain. Sometimes experts even don't have all the answers.
That's horrible analysis. Kevin Youkilis was the subject of the statement that sparked my LJ post.
Instead of such insightful analysis like "He's a baseball player that can play", expert analysis is more along the lines of..."Kevin Youkilis has great command of the strike zone. He has good plate coverage and a great eye and ability to discern balls and strikes. He's reaching the age that many players peak with their power abilities, and could be on his way to a power breakout." You know...something that actually gives you information about the player. There is absolutely no player ever that useful information about why he's good can't be given.
Re: Men Who Can Play The Game
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Originally Posted by
yankee hater
You want expert analysis - This player who knows how to play the game is good for reasons that we can't explain. Sometimes experts even don't have all the answers.
But generally these can be explained, the "experts" just chose not to bother and use any thought process and just say "because", which is essentially what they are doing ... There is only two people in the world that are allowed to give you that answer to a legitimate question.
Perhaps he could have pointed out that Youkilis excels due to a high level of concetraion, quailty body placement on defence, knowing pitch patters/tendencies in the batters box, great balance .... any one of those would have been far far far far more worthy to mention than the fact he knows how many outs there are in an ininng.
While Im not saying they ALL do this (i actually saw an amazing bit on BBT on how dramatically diffent Travis Halfner stand in the box now as opposed to 2006) but there just no reason for it.
Re: Men Who Can Play The Game
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Originally Posted by
gRYFYN1
While Im not saying they ALL do this (i actually saw an amazing bit on BBT on how dramatically diffent Travis Halfner stand in the box now as opposed to 2006) but there just no reason for it.
I saw that too. It was pretty good.
And yeah, it's not as if every analyst does this all the time. They all do have some real analysis, but I think the meaningless cliches are way too overdone. If those were sprinkled in every once in a while in between good, solid analysis, I wouldn't notice them, nor care. It's that mainstream "expert analysis" is cliches and nonsense, sprinkled with some analysis.
Re: Men Who Can Play The Game
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Originally Posted by
yankee hater
The point to all this is - HGM is being entirely too literal. 'Knowing how to play the game the right way' means the player can achieve things beyond his actual athletic level in comparision with others that possess similiar athletic skills.
agree and agree :)
Re: Men Who Can Play The Game
I don't think that expecting more than cliches from expert analysis is being too literal. I also don't see how "knowing how to play the game the right way" can make a player succeed beyond his actual athletic ability (being more intelligent, yes, but then why not just say that?), although I know that's what they mean.
Re: Men Who Can Play The Game
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Originally Posted by
yankee hater
It is not even intelligence - I guess the best word is aptitude.
Which is...skill...
I don't buy into the idea that players can be better than they're skill level. Better than their athletic tools, yes, I suppose, but that's because there's more to baseball than just athletics, and those that play "better than their athletic ability" have heightened skills in other aspects of the game.
Re: Men Who Can Play The Game
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Originally Posted by
yankee hater
No, aptitude is how easily a skill comes to someone. Or maybe I have the wrong word. But that's my concept of the idea. They just are able to better put their skills into baseball. Michael Jordan, one of the greatest athletes of possibly the most athletic sport, couldn't translate it into baseball performance - even though he undoubtedly had 'all the tools'
Except he couldn't hit a baseball, which is a tool. It doesn't mean he didn't know how to play the game, or that he wasn't playing up to his athletic tools, which is my point. Athletic tools can only take you so far in baseball, because it requires a lot more than just athletics.
Some players aren't very athletic, but have good hitting abilities. They see the ball well, they have good strike zone judgment, etc. They aren't playing above their abilities/skill level. They're playing to their skills.
Some players are extremely fast, limber, and athletic, but have no concept of the strike zone and can't put the bat on the ball. They're also playing to their skills - they lack the skill of hitting a baseball well.
I know you know this, but this is what I'm talking about. Dustin Pedroia may be small, skinny, not very fast, not very athletic, but he isn't succeeding because he "knows how to play the game" or because "he's a baseball player." He's also not playing above his head. He's succeeding because he has excellent hand-eye coordination and can place the bat on the ball with great frequency, which has nothing do with athletics.
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It isn't that they play better than their physical skills. They are refering to the fact they may outperfrorm others who are more physically gifted, and maybe even more intelligent. It's the 'x' factor that the physical tools and IQ tests don't explain.
Right, but there are reasons why they outperform the more physically gifted/maybe more intelligent players, and it's usually because hitting a baseball is extremely hard and all the athletic and even mental gifts in the world can't help you hit a baseball if you lack bat control and hand-eye coordination.
Re: Men Who Can Play The Game
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Originally Posted by
yankee hater
Michael Jordan lacked intelligence, hand-eye coordination and, and what else!? :confused:
Please show me where I said he lacked intelligence or hand-eye coordination. The only thing I said he lacked was the ability to hit a baseball.
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Who ever said they were playing 'above their ability'? No one. They are performing more up to their physical ability than the non true ballplayers.
No. I'm sure that Michael Jordan performed up to his physical ability. Hitting a baseball requires way more than just simple, overall, physical ability, which is why he failed.
