Add in the fact that Wang has had little to no run support thus far.
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Add in the fact that Wang has had little to no run support thus far.
Well I know Hughes and Kennedy are looking for their run support but it all seems to be going to Wang.....Mussina and Andy P are getting a little support but not much! Cano and Giambi are supporting EVERYONE on the team right now.
No statistics are great to a point but as the saying on the bottom scroll read last year on BM they don't show everything. I know if I am looking at pitchers I would rather take one with more wins than one who is statistically better.
I agree, Rick. I will take a winning pitcher over a losing pitcher any day of the year.
Oh... my... god...
Is this really a discussion?
:eek:
I know, right? Wang is easily the best; No Discussion!... Glad you see it my way :pQuote:
Originally Posted by ohms_law
I'm not sure exactly how we would count, with DL and callups and bullpen meltdowns and all. Just for sake of argument, Homegrown players on Yankees 25-man roster as of today:Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
Pitchers: 7
Joba Chamberlain
Ian Kennedy (demoted to AAA - so let's say Ohlendorff?)
Phil Hughes (DL, so Rasner takes this spot)
Chien-Ming Wang
Mariano Rivera
Jose Veras? (who?)
Edwar Ramirez?
Fielders: 3
Melky Cabrera
Derek Jeter
Robinson Cano
Bench Players: 2
Shelly Duncan
Alberto Gonzales (not the previous Bush appointee)
12. If not for Posada being on the DL, 13. That is impressive.
Red Sox, again 25 man roster as of today:
Pitchers: 4
Jon Lester
Clay Buchholz
Jonathan Papelbon
Manny Delcarmen
Fielders: 4
Jason Varitek (traded, but debut'd with us!)
Kevin Youuuuuukilis
Dustin Pedroia
Jacoby Ellsbury
Bench: 2
Jed Lowrie
Brandon Moss
So technically, right now because of injuries, you have more 'homegrown' talent on your 25, 12 to 10. If you want to count Matsui, then we get Oki and Dice-K, and you win 13-12. Whether this is due to injuries, or poor GM choices - either way, the day is yours. Thank goodness for that RJ trade to the D-backs, eh? That's about 5 guys right there!
But even so, everyone here has to admit - this is something of a new approach for the Bronx Bombers. Obviously I have no love for them, but this change, this garnering and protecting talent, which is so very admirable and actually makes me like them more than ever, is a NEW tactic for them. Perhaps...something they thought of, while paying out a luxury tax and watching young talent win in October? Hmm...
I'm sure HGM can talk about sample sizes here. Even if Beckett were still a Marlin - based on his dominance, his ability to shut down teams in the post-season...I saw his 13-strikeout game in person last weekend. You can select periods of time all day - a week, a month, a year - that Wang may have fared better; and as a fan, you are certainly free to choose him over Beckett. But don't expect to convince the more objective baseball fans out there. Ground balls are great, but they can always find holes (especially if your 1B moves like a Mac Truck).Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
Regardless - Wang is doing well, hats off, hope he continues to do well (but not too well). :D
Oswalt's better than Wang. Obviously Wang's a better value than Santana, but on a pure pitching ability, there is no doubt Santana is better, and if you would take Wang over Santana given everything else being equal, than uh, i don't even know what to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
Well, why isn't that entirely possible? Matt Cain was better than Noah Lowry last season, but Lowry had a better record.Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD
Let's look at it.
Chien-Ming Wang: 5.57
Andy Pettite: 4.5
Mike Mussina: 4.71
Phil HugheS: 3.67
Ian Kennedy: 3.12
So, yes, Wang is getting more support than the other starters, by a run a game.
So:
You're wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
But you're both failing to understand that you're defining a "winning" pitcher by what his offense does. If you put Matt Cain on the Yankees last year and he performed exactly the same, he would've had a good record.Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD
You're wrong.[/QUOTE]
I am not wrong.
Game Log for Chien Ming Wang:
April 1st - 7 innings, Yankees win 3-2 against Roy Halladay
April 6th - 6 innings, Yankees win 2-0 against James Shields
April 11th - 9 innings (CG), Yankees win 4-1 against Clay Buchholz
April 16th - 4 innings, Yankees win 15-9 against Clay Buchholz
April 22nd - 6 innings, Yankees win 9-5 against Jose Contreras
April 27th - 7 innings, Yankees win 1-0 against C.C. Sabathia
May 2nd - 6 innings, Yankees win 5-1 against Erik Bedard
3 runs support or less in 3/7 games, 5 runs or less 2/7 times, and above 5 runs support 2/7 times. Plus, notice how Wang has out-pitched the opposing team's ace numerous times. Also notice how every time Wang has pitched, the Yankees have won! 4/7 times he beat a top notch SP. Basically, he has a 100% winning percentage against the team's opposing ace. Also, if you notice, the time when he got 15 runs of support... He was out after 4 innings; Can't pitch like an ACE every game.
Please tell me how Wang is actually winning those games...
I know I'm immature, but the following statements from this thread made me lol...
"Oswalt's better than Wang.":)
"I would EASILY take Wang.." :eek:
"I like Wang" :D
"I'm taking Wang!":eek:
This board is full of guys who love Wang!:p
Thanks for making me laugh this morning:D
lol
..You've gotta admit, he's got a point.
:D
With his sick sinker, very good slider, mid 90's fastball, and top notch control?Quote:
Originally Posted by ohms_law
Wang is still getting more run support in all than the rest of the Yankees starters, and he's gotten really good support his whole career.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
In 2007, he got 6.47 runs per game.
In 2006, 5.70 runs per game.
Matt Cain, in 2006, got 4.67 runs per game. In 2007, he got a freakin' ridiculously low 3.20 runs per game. And you're telling me that because Wang got better support, it makes him a better pitcher?
For what it's worth, Wang 06-07 WAS better than Cain, but the gap is FAR from as drastic as their respective won-loss records would indicat.
Wins tell you nothing about how well a pitcher has pitched.
He's winning the game all by himself with all that? No, he's not, which is the point. Wins don't tell you how he's pitched. His other statistics tell you that - for example, his really high groundball rate tells you he's got a great sinker. His increasing strikeout rate tells you he's been improving his slider, his low walk rates tell you he has great control. High groundball rate + great control = good pitcher. It's not the wins that tell you that.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
Yes but the Yankees hitters are not winning the game all by themselves either as Wang at least keeps them in the game! You could argue A-rod is not that good it's the people around him. It's a circular argument. The FACT is Wang is 6-0 and for my money I'll take that any day of the week.
Wang can keep runs off the board, but he can't (especially in the AL) put them up there.
Obviously it's not only the Yankee hitters, and Wang's been very good..Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD
No, you couldn't.Quote:
You could argue A-rod is not that good it's the people around him.
Of course, so will I. He's an excellent pitcher. My original point was simply that he is not even arguably the best pitcher over the last two years. One of the top pitchers in the league? Yes. The best? No. His won-loss record does not tell you a single thing about how he has pitched.Quote:
The FACT is Wang is 6-0 and for my money I'll take that any day of the week.
Steve Trachsel went 15-8 in 2006 with a 4.97 ERA (88 ERA+). Whose prepared to argue that he pitched just as well as Brandon Webb, who went 16-8?
Well I wouldn't and neither was as good as Wang who went 19-7!:p
:rolleyes: Brandon Webb was the best pitcher in 2006-2007 combined, with Santana second.
(In 2006, Webb got nearly a run and a half less run support than Wang. Of course, that has absolutely nothing to do with why he didn't win as many games, right? :rolleyes:)
Actually NEITHER Gonzales nor Ohlendorff is A HOMEGROWN they were traded to NYY in one of the AZ-NYY "Big Unit" deals,also Ramirez & Veras were FA imports from Indy ballQuote:
Originally Posted by Alloutwar
So Actual Draftees:
Yankees 25-man roster as of today:
Pitchers: 3
Joba Chamberlain
Ian Kennedy
Phil Hughes
Fielders: 4
Jorge Posada
Melky Cabrera
Derek Jeter
Robinson Cano
Bench Players: 0
= 7
Red Sox, again 25 man roster as of today:
Pitchers: 4
Jon Lester
Clay Buchholz
Jonathan Papelbon
Manny Delcarmen
Fielders: 3
Kevin Youkilis
Dustin Pedroia
Jacoby Ellsbury
Bench: 2
Jed Lowrie
Brandon Moss
= 9
(You COULD also add Masterson as a MLB draftee for the Sox as he did a spot start last week)
3? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX
Also, Andy Pettite was homegrown, and Mariano Rivera, and Wang. Yes, they weren't drafted, but they WERE homegrown...
IYO ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Sorry My bad (I CUT N PASTE'd)
Wang was an International FA,if you count him you count Igawa/Dice K/Okijima etc etc.
Red Sox homegrown:
Clay Buchholz
Manny Delcarmen
Jon Lester
Jonathan Papelbon
Jed Lowrie
Dustin Pedroia
Kevin Youkilis
Jacoby Ellsbury
Brandon Moss
=9.
Yankees homegrown:
Joba Chamberlain
Andy Pettite
Mariano Rivera
Chien-Ming Wang
Robinson Cano
Jorge Posada
Shelley Duncan
Derek Jeter
Melky Cabrera
= 9.
Except Igawa, Matsuzaka, Okajima, and Matsui all had professional experience. Wang was still an amateur.Quote:
Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX
And if you include the Japanese players, the totals I listed above become 11 and 11 (although, technically, Igawa isn't on the 25 man yet :p).
I wasn't counting Pettite - since he's gone off to free agency and came back. I was only counting guys that had stayed within the fold all along, which may not have been appropriate.
I WAS counting Ohlendorff, Gonzales, etc. - anyone with no prior-to-Yankees MLB experience.
Yeah, uh, I don't even know exactly what this particular debate is about. It's quite obvious that both teams have well-developed farm systems AND both teams spend big money on free agents...Quote:
Originally Posted by Alloutwar
A-ha - so you agree! Wang IS the best! :D
2006-2007 Translated Pitching Stats for Wang and Webb:
Wang:Quote:
Converts all pitching statistics into a standard context. Pitchers are translated to a league where the top five pitchers (in innings) pitch an average of 275 innings. An average pitcher will have rates, per nine innings, of 9.00 hits, 1.00 home run, 3.00 walks, 6.00 strikeouts, and 4.50 earned runs. In the standard context, a replacement level pitcher has a 6.00; the translation is set up to conserve runs above replacement (alltime PRAR). Wins and losses are set using the pythagorean formula with average run support, with the pitcher's actual deviation from his real expected win percentage added back in.
2006- 18-12, 3.92 ERA
2007- 17-12, 3.83 ERA
Webb:
2006- 21-9, 3.02 ERA
2007- 22-11, 3.29 ERA
Nice stats but in the end those weren't the actual win-loss records. I look at the bottom line which tells me Wang had more wins. Simply the best!
Those stats show you what the won-loss record would be if each pitcher got identical run support in an equal environment.Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD
Do you understand, though, that in order for a pitcher to earn a win, his team has to score more runs than he allows?
A pitcher can earn a win if he gives up 8 runs and his team scores 9. Did he pitch good? Nope. A pitcher can earn a win if he comes in with a lead and then blows the game and then his team takes the lead back. Did he pitch good? Nope.
A pitcher can get a loss if he allows 1 run and his team his shutout, like what happened to Matt Cain 3 times last season. Did Matt Cain pitch bad? **** no. His team just sucked.
Those are the reasons (and more) that going by win-loss record is a ridiculously silly way to evaluate which pitchers are better.
Ah hypothetically speaking that might be true....in reality though Wang won more games.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Yes!Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
See though I am a fan...so I can look at stats until I am blue in the face but in the end, I love the Yanks, I like Wang and I think he is the best thing going right now. This is what makes baseball great. Fans standing behind their teams. I love the Yanks. Always have, Always will. Yes they have stunk at times, I can admit that, however Wang is 6-0!Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
So the discussion can go on for pages but I hear what you are saying and as an irrational, die hard Yanks fan all I can say is :p
Go Wang!
haha. Well, at least RickD is honest!
So if RickD were a Pirates fan, he would probably think Elroy Face is the best reliever of all time:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...61/ai_84542687Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Holtzman, inventor of the save stat
Probably....it's the beauty of being an irrational fan! I am thinking of making that my new sig!
:eek: Don't you all think we've had enough wang?
seriously man - these wang lovers are tough to deal with. I wanna talk about great pitchers - they wanna talk about wang. Glorifying the wang, putting that wang up there on a pedastal. I tell you man, these guys are crazy about the wang.
Well the thread was about what now for NYY so talking about Wang it fits. This is a NYY thread!
Yes, wang really fits in good here. It fits in almost perfectly.
Game: Arrange three startings pitcher's last names (or nicknames) into a funny animal part:
Petitte Moose Wang
LOL!:D
If Petitte Moose Wang went 20-0 HGM would still argue a 1-15 pitcher was better because of run support for PMW! :p