What now for the NYY?

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Originally Posted by Alloutwar

I'm not sure exactly how we would count, with DL and callups and bullpen meltdowns and all. Just for sake of argument, Homegrown players on Yankees 25-man roster as of today:
Pitchers: 7
Joba Chamberlain
Ian Kennedy (demoted to AAA - so let's say Ohlendorff?)
Phil Hughes (DL, so Rasner takes this spot)
Chien-Ming Wang
Mariano Rivera
Jose Veras? (who?)
Edwar Ramirez?
Fielders: 3
Melky Cabrera
Derek Jeter
Robinson Cano
Bench Players: 2
Shelly Duncan
Alberto Gonzales (not the previous Bush appointee)

12. If not for Posada being on the DL, 13. That is impressive.

Red Sox, again 25 man roster as of today:
Pitchers: 4
Jon Lester
Clay Buchholz
Jonathan Papelbon
Manny Delcarmen
Fielders: 4
Jason Varitek (traded, but debut'd with us!)
Kevin Youuuuuukilis
Dustin Pedroia
Jacoby Ellsbury
Bench: 2
Jed Lowrie
Brandon Moss

So technically, right now because of injuries, you have more 'homegrown' talent on your 25, 12 to 10. If you want to count Matsui, then we get Oki and Dice-K, and you win 13-12. Whether this is due to injuries, or poor GM choices - either way, the day is yours. Thank goodness for that RJ trade to the D-backs, eh? That's about 5 guys right there!

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Actually NEITHER Gonzales nor Ohlendorff is A HOMEGROWN they were traded to NYY in one of the AZ-NYY "Big Unit" deals,also Ramirez & Veras were FA imports from Indy ball

So Actual Draftees:


Yankees 25-man roster as of today:
Pitchers: 3
Joba Chamberlain
Ian Kennedy
Phil Hughes

Fielders: 4
Jorge Posada
Melky Cabrera
Derek Jeter
Robinson Cano
Bench Players: 0

= 7


Red Sox, again 25 man roster as of today:
Pitchers: 4
Jon Lester
Clay Buchholz
Jonathan Papelbon
Manny Delcarmen
Fielders: 3
Kevin Youkilis
Dustin Pedroia
Jacoby Ellsbury
Bench: 2
Jed Lowrie
Brandon Moss

= 9

(You COULD also add Masterson as a MLB draftee for the Sox as he did a spot start last week)

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Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX

Fielders: 3
Jorge Posada
Melky Cabrera
Derek Jeter
Robinson Cano

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3? :p

Also, Andy Pettite was homegrown, and Mariano Rivera, and Wang. Yes, they weren't drafted, but they WERE homegrown...

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

:rolleyes: Brandon Webb was the best pitcher in 2006-2007 combined, with Santana second.

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IYO ;)

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

3? :p

Also, Andy Pettite was homegrown, and Mariano Rivera, and Wang. Yes, they weren't drafted, but they WERE homegrown...

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Sorry My bad (I CUT N PASTE'd)


Wang was an International FA,if you count him you count Igawa/Dice K/Okijima etc etc.

Red Sox homegrown:

Clay Buchholz
Manny Delcarmen
Jon Lester
Jonathan Papelbon
Jed Lowrie
Dustin Pedroia
Kevin Youkilis
Jacoby Ellsbury
Brandon Moss

=9.

Yankees homegrown:

Joba Chamberlain
Andy Pettite
Mariano Rivera
Chien-Ming Wang
Robinson Cano
Jorge Posada
Shelley Duncan
Derek Jeter
Melky Cabrera

= 9.

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Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX

Wang was an International FA,if you count him you count Igawa/Dice K/Okijima etc etc.

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Except Igawa, Matsuzaka, Okajima, and Matsui all had professional experience. Wang was still an amateur.

And if you include the Japanese players, the totals I listed above become 11 and 11 (although, technically, Igawa isn't on the 25 man yet :p).

I wasn't counting Pettite - since he's gone off to free agency and came back. I was only counting guys that had stayed within the fold all along, which may not have been appropriate.

I WAS counting Ohlendorff, Gonzales, etc. - anyone with no prior-to-Yankees MLB experience.

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Originally Posted by Alloutwar

I wasn't counting Pettite - since he's gone off to free agency and came back. I was only counting guys that had stayed within the fold all along, which may not have been appropriate.

I WAS counting Ohlendorff, Gonzales, etc. - anyone with no prior-to-Yankees MLB experience.

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Yeah, uh, I don't even know exactly what this particular debate is about. It's quite obvious that both teams have well-developed farm systems AND both teams spend big money on free agents...

A-ha - so you agree! Wang IS the best! :D

2006-2007 Translated Pitching Stats for Wang and Webb:

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Converts all pitching statistics into a standard context. Pitchers are translated to a league where the top five pitchers (in innings) pitch an average of 275 innings. An average pitcher will have rates, per nine innings, of 9.00 hits, 1.00 home run, 3.00 walks, 6.00 strikeouts, and 4.50 earned runs. In the standard context, a replacement level pitcher has a 6.00; the translation is set up to conserve runs above replacement (alltime PRAR). Wins and losses are set using the pythagorean formula with average run support, with the pitcher's actual deviation from his real expected win percentage added back in.

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Wang:
2006- 18-12, 3.92 ERA
2007- 17-12, 3.83 ERA

Webb:
2006- 21-9, 3.02 ERA
2007- 22-11, 3.29 ERA

Nice stats but in the end those weren't the actual win-loss records. I look at the bottom line which tells me Wang had more wins. Simply the best!

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Originally Posted by RickD

Nice stats but in the end those weren't the actual win-loss records. I look at the bottom line which tells me Wang had more wins. Simply the best!

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Those stats show you what the won-loss record would be if each pitcher got identical run support in an equal environment.

Do you understand, though, that in order for a pitcher to earn a win, his team has to score more runs than he allows?

A pitcher can earn a win if he gives up 8 runs and his team scores 9. Did he pitch good? Nope. A pitcher can earn a win if he comes in with a lead and then blows the game and then his team takes the lead back. Did he pitch good? Nope.

A pitcher can get a loss if he allows 1 run and his team his shutout, like what happened to Matt Cain 3 times last season. Did Matt Cain pitch bad? **** no. His team just sucked.

Those are the reasons (and more) that going by win-loss record is a ridiculously silly way to evaluate which pitchers are better.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Those stats show you what the won-loss record would be if each pitcher got identical run support in an equal environment.

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Ah hypothetically speaking that might be true....in reality though Wang won more games.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Do you understand, though, that in order for a pitcher to earn a win, his team has to score more runs than he allows?

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Yes!

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Those are the reasons (and more) that going by win-loss record is a ridiculously silly way to evaluate which pitchers are better.

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See though I am a fan...so I can look at stats until I am blue in the face but in the end, I love the Yanks, I like Wang and I think he is the best thing going right now. This is what makes baseball great. Fans standing behind their teams. I love the Yanks. Always have, Always will. Yes they have stunk at times, I can admit that, however Wang is 6-0!

So the discussion can go on for pages but I hear what you are saying and as an irrational, die hard Yanks fan all I can say is :p

Go Wang!

haha. Well, at least RickD is honest!

So if RickD were a Pirates fan, he would probably think Elroy Face is the best reliever of all time:

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Originally Posted by Jerome Holtzman, inventor of the save stat

For example, Elroy Face of the Pittsburgh Pirates was 18-1 in 1959, still the one-season record for the most victories by a reliever. Face was immediately acclaimed as the best bullpen artist in all baseball history.

I knew better. He was much more effective the year before when he was 5-2.

In 10 of his 18 victories, Face coughed up the tying or lead run but got the win because the Pirates had a strong hitting team and rallied for the victory while he was the pitcher of record.

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http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...61/ai_84542687

Probably....it's the beauty of being an irrational fan! I am thinking of making that my new sig!