Re: What now for the NYY?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
koolzach1
Yeah, I hate when teams "buy" their players... AKA, Red Sox with how many homegrown players on their team? Oh, yeah, that's right... Less than the Yankees :D
I'm not sure exactly how we would count, with DL and callups and bullpen meltdowns and all. Just for sake of argument, Homegrown players on Yankees 25-man roster as of today:
Pitchers: 7
Joba Chamberlain
Ian Kennedy (demoted to AAA - so let's say Ohlendorff?)
Phil Hughes (DL, so Rasner takes this spot)
Chien-Ming Wang
Mariano Rivera
Jose Veras? (who?)
Edwar Ramirez?
Fielders: 3
Melky Cabrera
Derek Jeter
Robinson Cano
Bench Players: 2
Shelly Duncan
Alberto Gonzales (not the previous Bush appointee)
12. If not for Posada being on the DL, 13. That is impressive.
Red Sox, again 25 man roster as of today:
Pitchers: 4
Jon Lester
Clay Buchholz
Jonathan Papelbon
Manny Delcarmen
Fielders: 4
Jason Varitek (traded, but debut'd with us!)
Kevin Youuuuuukilis
Dustin Pedroia
Jacoby Ellsbury
Bench: 2
Jed Lowrie
Brandon Moss
So technically, right now because of injuries, you have more 'homegrown' talent on your 25, 12 to 10. If you want to count Matsui, then we get Oki and Dice-K, and you win 13-12. Whether this is due to injuries, or poor GM choices - either way, the day is yours. Thank goodness for that RJ trade to the D-backs, eh? That's about 5 guys right there!
But even so, everyone here has to admit - this is something of a new approach for the Bronx Bombers. Obviously I have no love for them, but this change, this garnering and protecting talent, which is so very admirable and actually makes me like them more than ever, is a NEW tactic for them. Perhaps...something they thought of, while paying out a luxury tax and watching young talent win in October? Hmm...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
koolzach1
In the league of Beckett? Oh, you mean that guy that had a 5.01 ERA 2 seasons ago, and has a 4.19 ERA this season so far. Gotcha... I hope that Wang gets to his level one day :p
I'm sure HGM can talk about sample sizes here. Even if Beckett were still a Marlin - based on his dominance, his ability to shut down teams in the post-season...I saw his 13-strikeout game in person last weekend. You can select periods of time all day - a week, a month, a year - that Wang may have fared better; and as a fan, you are certainly free to choose him over Beckett. But don't expect to convince the more objective baseball fans out there. Ground balls are great, but they can always find holes (especially if your 1B moves like a Mac Truck).
Regardless - Wang is doing well, hats off, hope he continues to do well (but not too well). :D
Re: What now for the NYY?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
koolzach1
I would EASILY take Wang over Santana and Oswalt. Santana makes a ton, and has never pitched for the Yankees and proven that he could handle the Bronx like Wang. Oswalt... He is an NL pitcher, and isn't even at the level of Wang.
Oswalt's better than Wang. Obviously Wang's a better value than Santana, but on a pure pitching ability, there is no doubt Santana is better, and if you would take Wang over Santana given everything else being equal, than uh, i don't even know what to say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD
He is 6-0 this year and if you look at the rest of the pitchers for the Yanks this year it means they (the hitters) are basically only supporting Wang if you go by that argument.
Well, why isn't that entirely possible? Matt Cain was better than Noah Lowry last season, but Lowry had a better record.
Let's look at it.
Chien-Ming Wang: 5.57
Andy Pettite: 4.5
Mike Mussina: 4.71
Phil HugheS: 3.67
Ian Kennedy: 3.12
So, yes, Wang is getting more support than the other starters, by a run a game.
So:
Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
Add in the fact that Wang has had little to no run support thus far.
You're wrong.
Re: What now for the NYY?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
koolzach1
I agree, Rick. I will take a winning pitcher over a losing pitcher any day of the year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD
I know if I am looking at pitchers I would rather take one with more wins than one who is statistically better.
But you're both failing to understand that you're defining a "winning" pitcher by what his offense does. If you put Matt Cain on the Yankees last year and he performed exactly the same, he would've had a good record.
Re: What now for the NYY?
You're wrong.[/QUOTE]
I am not wrong.
Game Log for Chien Ming Wang:
April 1st - 7 innings, Yankees win 3-2 against Roy Halladay
April 6th - 6 innings, Yankees win 2-0 against James Shields
April 11th - 9 innings (CG), Yankees win 4-1 against Clay Buchholz
April 16th - 4 innings, Yankees win 15-9 against Clay Buchholz
April 22nd - 6 innings, Yankees win 9-5 against Jose Contreras
April 27th - 7 innings, Yankees win 1-0 against C.C. Sabathia
May 2nd - 6 innings, Yankees win 5-1 against Erik Bedard
3 runs support or less in 3/7 games, 5 runs or less 2/7 times, and above 5 runs support 2/7 times. Plus, notice how Wang has out-pitched the opposing team's ace numerous times. Also notice how every time Wang has pitched, the Yankees have won! 4/7 times he beat a top notch SP. Basically, he has a 100% winning percentage against the team's opposing ace. Also, if you notice, the time when he got 15 runs of support... He was out after 4 innings; Can't pitch like an ACE every game.
Re: What now for the NYY?
Please tell me how Wang is actually winning those games...
Re: What now for the NYY?
I know I'm immature, but the following statements from this thread made me lol...
"Oswalt's better than Wang.":)
"I would EASILY take Wang.." :eek:
"I like Wang" :D
"I'm taking Wang!":eek:
This board is full of guys who love Wang!:p
Thanks for making me laugh this morning:D
Re: What now for the NYY?
lol
..You've gotta admit, he's got a point.
:D
Re: What now for the NYY?
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Originally Posted by
ohms_law
Please tell me how Wang is actually winning those games...
With his sick sinker, very good slider, mid 90's fastball, and top notch control?
Re: What now for the NYY?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
koolzach1
3 runs support or less in 3/7 games, 5 runs or less 2/7 times, and above 5 runs support 2/7 times. Plus, notice how Wang has out-pitched the opposing team's ace numerous times. Also notice how every time Wang has pitched, the Yankees have won! 4/7 times he beat a top notch SP. Basically, he has a 100% winning percentage against the team's opposing ace. Also, if you notice, the time when he got 15 runs of support... He was out after 4 innings; Can't pitch like an ACE every game.
Wang is still getting more run support in all than the rest of the Yankees starters, and he's gotten really good support his whole career.
In 2007, he got 6.47 runs per game.
In 2006, 5.70 runs per game.
Matt Cain, in 2006, got 4.67 runs per game. In 2007, he got a freakin' ridiculously low 3.20 runs per game. And you're telling me that because Wang got better support, it makes him a better pitcher?
For what it's worth, Wang 06-07 WAS better than Cain, but the gap is FAR from as drastic as their respective won-loss records would indicat.
Wins tell you nothing about how well a pitcher has pitched.
Re: What now for the NYY?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
koolzach1
With his sick sinker, very good slider, mid 90's fastball, and top notch control?
He's winning the game all by himself with all that? No, he's not, which is the point. Wins don't tell you how he's pitched. His other statistics tell you that - for example, his really high groundball rate tells you he's got a great sinker. His increasing strikeout rate tells you he's been improving his slider, his low walk rates tell you he has great control. High groundball rate + great control = good pitcher. It's not the wins that tell you that.
Re: What now for the NYY?
Yes but the Yankees hitters are not winning the game all by themselves either as Wang at least keeps them in the game! You could argue A-rod is not that good it's the people around him. It's a circular argument. The FACT is Wang is 6-0 and for my money I'll take that any day of the week.
Re: What now for the NYY?
Wang can keep runs off the board, but he can't (especially in the AL) put them up there.
Re: What now for the NYY?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RickD
Yes but the Yankees hitters are not winning the game all by themselves either as Wang at least keeps them in the game!
Obviously it's not only the Yankee hitters, and Wang's been very good..
Quote:
You could argue A-rod is not that good it's the people around him.
No, you couldn't.
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The FACT is Wang is 6-0 and for my money I'll take that any day of the week.
Of course, so will I. He's an excellent pitcher. My original point was simply that he is not even arguably the best pitcher over the last two years. One of the top pitchers in the league? Yes. The best? No. His won-loss record does not tell you a single thing about how he has pitched.
Steve Trachsel went 15-8 in 2006 with a 4.97 ERA (88 ERA+). Whose prepared to argue that he pitched just as well as Brandon Webb, who went 16-8?
Re: What now for the NYY?
Well I wouldn't and neither was as good as Wang who went 19-7!:p
Re: What now for the NYY?
:rolleyes: Brandon Webb was the best pitcher in 2006-2007 combined, with Santana second.
(In 2006, Webb got nearly a run and a half less run support than Wang. Of course, that has absolutely nothing to do with why he didn't win as many games, right? :rolleyes:)
