Athlete dies after being forced to compete

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I DO find it cruel, unusual, and the height of hubris to think that we as a civilized people have the right to use animals strictly for our entertainment.

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Why?

I'm not talking about chicken or dog fights either. There's no intent to injure horses who are entered in a race. Injuries do happen of course, just as they happen in sporting events that human being take part in. There's reasonable effort made to reduce or even eliminate injuries in horse racing, just as there is reasonable effort to reduce injuries in, say, football. Honestly, I don't get it.

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Why?

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Because his arguments have been shot down every which way to Sunday and now, refusing to admit they were baseless, he's trying to cling onto anything.

What about show dogs? Is that cruelty to animals? Or what about Liza Minelli's dog who she left millions to in her will and has more personal assistants on his payroll than we'll have people at our big birthday parties? He's been in commercials etc....i guess that's cruelty.

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I do not find using animals for food cruel or unusual as long as they are properly cared for and not injected with any drugs to make them bigger or other reasons.

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Almost all of our food supply is now given drugs in one form or another for many reasons, making them bigger is the least of them. Often it is to avoid disease or provide vitamins etc. to maintain health. Cruelty?

Those riding camels or horses in the desert? I don't think they were built with the intention of having someone atop them in a dry environment of 100+ degrees. (i'm reaching now :D)

You must have hated Dr. Doolittle, Mr. Ed, and Lassie. How dare they use an animal for profit. Sure, now those animals are beloved, still doesn't make it right.

All I have to say is what do horses do in the wild?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Run.

That's what they are built for physically. It's not like they are taking horses and making them throw shot puts or something. The fact that people make a lot of money off of the sport is simply a by product of it's popularity.

Most horses are treated fairly, and most even better than some humans. Sure there are people that treat them badly, just like their are people that beat their kids.

Entertainment is something that society needs to survive. If the animals are treated fairly and taken well care of then what is the harm? Do you know what the horse is thinking? He might be having the time of his life running around the track. I know that when I have watched dog races the dogs are some of the happiest that I have ever seen once then get back to their owners after they race.

If using an animal soley for the entertainment of humans and to make money is wrong then how do you watch major league baseball? Isn't that what we are doing to our own kind? Tell me what assistance Ryan Howard hitting a homerun gives society other than making it money?

We can take it a little further as well if you want to. What does making money do? It assists society. We have to have money to buy the things that we need in life. We have to stimulate the economy and if you think for a second that the Kentucky Derby doesn't stimulate that heck out of the economy, especially in Kentucky, then you are dead wrong.

Frank DeFord had some interesting comments on this this morning on NPR. Obviously, he doesn't think it's something for PETA can find fault with, and I don't think it's really gross or unjust; however, you have to admit, the horse breeding industry has focused on speed, speed, speed for years. They've genetically engineered horses to be as fast as possible at the expense of all else, and pass those genetic issues on with every generation. Horses run in the wild, but they also mate freely in the wild instead of being forced to inbreed, and they also don't run with a dude on their back, spiking and whipping them to go faster. Just to be fair.

He brings up the point that european horse racing is much more balanced, and demands some actual brain use and strategy, rather than just getting the most speed all the time. Also, we allow horses to get drugs, which may or may not have an impact; from what I hear, this is not the case in european racing as well.

Honestly, I don't watch horse racing, and I sorta think it should eventually die off as we come up with better ways to entertain ourselves. After all, gladiator bouts don't really happen anymore, and they were once entertainment. But, I personally also think auto racing should be done away with...unless it can be done with 0 pollution and such. But, that's just me!

I'm not even going to touch the argument about pollution and auto racing...

I agree with most of what you have said. Someone above brought up the fact that 1 horse in every 1000 races comes up lame and has to be put down. Also they stated that 6000 races happen every day. I agree that 6 horses having to be put down on average every day is a little excessive. Sure they should look in to it and find out what is going on. There should be regulations, and I'm not sure what kind of drugs that they give them, but there should certainly be someone regulating that sort of thing.

The breeding of the horses is what causes the physical and mental deformaties and that is something that needs to be looked at if you are going to argue that it is the owners faults that these horses are coming up lame as often as they are. However there is nothing regulating what animals you can mate with what. It happens all the time in the dog breeding world. For instance a long haird dachsund is a product of excessive inbreeding...

LOL - I figured I am somewhere out in left field with my anti-pollution stance, that's cool.

Oh man, dogs too - where have we gone with dog breeding. There are dogs now that are seriously like a beagle/horse mix. My girlfriend owns one. Gross. Poor thing has a huuuge ribcage...looks totally unnatural, like a zombie dog from Resident Evil or something.

• A new breed of high performance electric car - has a carbon fibre body shell and a race-approved roll cage structure which make it a very safe, capable and environmentally responsible vehicle. With a 9" electric motor driving each rear wheel and over 1,000 ft-lb of combined torque at low rpms, the Tango can accelerate from zero to 150 mph in one gear. It accelerates from zero to 60 mph in four seconds, which makes it faster than most exotica you can buy off the showroom floor such as the Dodge Viper, Porsche Carrera GT or Ferrari F50 and twice as quick over a short distance as most road inhabitants. It will also stop the clocks at 12 seconds dead for a quarter mile
• The Lightning Electric Car: sleek design meets high performance - 700+bhp, The Lightning uses a sophisticated regenerative energy system that captures excess friction from the braking process and converts it to charge the car's batteries. This technology is also set to become part of Formula One from 2008 when KERS (Kinetic Energy Recovery Systems) become mandatory and will enable the Lightning’s range to be extended to over 250 miles/400km.
• Tesla - 0 to 60 in under 4 seconds, Top Speed 125 mph, 248hp, 2690 pounds

Imagine these in the hands of racing teams

Wow, nice set of cars, SirK! Can't wait to own one myself...

That's what I'm wondering - why has no racing team gone with a hybrid, just for the extra mileage - one less stop in the pit for gas a race could help, couldn't it? Or just go all out electric...maybe there are rules that all cars have to be combustion engines? Maybe they need the cars to be loud and consume gas, who knows...

http://www.roadtripamerica.com/wheels/flc.htm
http://www.nedra.com/
Porsche Carrera GT Vs. Electric Car Wrightspeed X1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXqYbNEiW0Y
340 Hp 4wd PROEV Lithium Polymer Electric car racing SCCA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJWNzFR_QQ
the youtube clips have links to other electric car racing too

Electric Car Wrightspeed X1 prototype - http://wrightspeed.com/x1.html

Alt Car Expo 2007: Electric car racing with Michael Kadie and 2.S.S.I.C. (VIDEO)
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/11...l-kadie-and-2/

Here is what I want - http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/vehi...hoenix-sut.php

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Originally Posted by Alloutwar

Wow, nice set of cars, SirK! Can't wait to own one myself...

That's what I'm wondering - why has no racing team gone with a hybrid, just for the extra mileage - one less stop in the pit for gas a race could help, couldn't it? Or just go all out electric...maybe there are rules that all cars have to be combustion engines? Maybe they need the cars to be loud and consume gas, who knows...

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Because it is against the rules. If one team went that way the entire league would have to go that way. The actual variance that can exist between motors in NASCAR is miniscule.

Electric cars will be in F1 well before nascar. Nascar is going around an oval making a left hand turn. F1 involves chicanes, sharp turns, hairpin corners, s curves, breaking, accelerating; you know, driving.

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Originally Posted by Alloutwar

He brings up the point that european horse racing is much more balanced, and demands some actual brain use and strategy, rather than just getting the most speed all the time.

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What's the difference between European and American horse racing?

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Originally Posted by kevarms

What's the difference between European and American horse racing?

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American horses have a better dental plan.

And are also much fatter???

I don't know much about either countries' horse racing specifics - here's what he said:

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But our mania for speed has made these great, delicate beasts all the more brittle. All 20 horses in the Derby were descended from one great sire — Native Dancer, magnificent gray who lived but a half-century ago. Add to this inbreeding the fact that today drugs are allowed in the United States that are banned most elsewhere, so horses that have no business racing do, and then go to stud and pass on their weaknesses.

Speed, speed. European horses run more tactical races. We just go flat out.

Sterling Moss, an old star of another type of racing, Formula One, once explained it this way: "You see, we have an entirely different concept of speed in Europe. It's relative. You arrive at a 60-miles-per-hour corner, for example, and try going around it at 61. Then you'll know what speed is."

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http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=90231429

Interesting. We do have lot of racing that is 2 or more miles over jumps, but I figured anything less than a couple of miles on the flat is a sprint for horses.

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All 20 horses in the Derby were descended from one great sire — Native Dancer, magnificent gray who lived but a half-century ago.

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:eek: That is even more in-bred than our Royal Family!!!

There's no intent to injure horses who are entered in a race. Injuries do happen of course, just as they happen in sporting events that human being take part in. There's reasonable effort made to reduce or even eliminate injuries in horse racing, just as there is reasonable effort to reduce injuries in, say, football. Honestly, I don't get it.

The difference is humans have the choice to play football (or any sport), knowing all the consequences that could happen. Animals don't.

As I said before, I don't care how well cared for they are, they are forced to compete and entertain. I just don't find that to be a valid reason.

Because his arguments have been shot down every which way to Sunday and now, refusing to admit they were baseless, he's trying to cling onto anything.

How have they been shot down? Because you and others claim that they are well taken care of and that should make it ok? I don't agree with that. Also, why are they baseless? It's my own opinion that a certain way we treat animals is wrong. My opinion is no more wrong than some one else who thinks PEDs should be allowed in sports. That person may be in the minority, but it doesn't make his points and opinions baseless.

By the way some people are responding, I'm just assuming that they haven't read anything I've posted.

First it was they were being forced to do something....then after numerous modifications I think it currently stands at it is cruelty if the animal is forced to do something for profit. You've made so many exceptions to your initial argument after being given numerous comparisons, that it really appears you are simply trying to hold onto your initial assumption at all costs regardless of how silly the argument seems.

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Almost all of our food supply is now given drugs in one form or another for many reasons, making them bigger is the least of them. Often it is to avoid disease or provide vitamins etc. to maintain health. Cruelty?

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Actually, I have a problem with the regular injection of cattle with antibiotics, but it has nothing to do with cruelty. It has everything to do with the fact that numerous studies are now showing that the constant injection of food animals with antibiotics has increased the exposure rate that viruses have to those antibiotics, and is a major factor in the quicker-than-expected viral mutations that have made many previously treatable diseases hardened against current antibiotic medications.

Yea...

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Originally Posted by Arctic Blast

Actually, I have a problem with the regular injection of cattle with antibiotics, but it has nothing to do with cruelty. It has everything to do with the fact that numerous studies are now showing that the constant injection of food animals with antibiotics has increased the exposure rate that viruses have to those antibiotics, and is a major factor in the quicker-than-expected viral mutations that have made many previously treatable diseases hardened against current antibiotic medications.

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For me, it actually does have something to do with cruelty, but in a different way. The reason they have to inject them with the antibiotics is because most stockyards keep cattle in unsanitary and crowded conditions prior to slaughter. Of course, I agree with you on the overuse of antibiotics and the consequences of that.

This was my first thread I ever posted on Sports Mogul. This was also my first ever encounter with Dickay, where he tried to twist my words and threw out multiple strawmen. Those were the days, huh fellas?

I still find horse racing and animals forced to preform deplorable.

Years later and your argument is still absurd. What you like to call "strawmen" are in fact fair examples for comparison showing a lack of consistency in your argument. This below still fits best. Now stop abusing your cat by making him/her use the litter box will ya :cool:. and for emphasis :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by dickay

So your issue is the whip. If they take the whip away, it'll be something else. Some horses are work horses, these are race horses. Some dogs are used on the police force, some are used to help the blind. I guess these are not ok?? Or, because no whip is used they are OK??? I'm confused.

How bout the invisible fences?? Or bark collars?? I trained dogs in the past, and will tell you that the pinch collar I had to use was much much more humane than the regular collar I used as the dog was constantly pulling and hurting himself before the pinch collar taught him not to. I suppose I should have just let him off the leash as leash corrections are cruelty??

We can go further. How bout cats made to use a litter box??? Really, of course the cat doesn't like it, they try to bury it when their done. Many say it humiliates them. My old roommate fed crickets to his snake. OMG the torture.

Lets get real. These animals are very well cared for and loved at the top end of this sport at least. Today you gripe about the leash, tomorrow its because they are kept in stable and not allowed to roam.

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lol'd at the bold part, and love the comparison to professional athletes. How dare their coaches make them run, do pushups and other physically exhausting punishments during their development:

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Originally Posted by jcbarr

All I have to say is what do horses do in the wild?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Run.

That's what they are built for physically. It's not like they are taking horses and making them throw shot puts or something. The fact that people make a lot of money off of the sport is simply a by product of it's popularity.

Most horses are treated fairly, and most even better than some humans. Sure there are people that treat them badly, just like their are people that beat their kids.

Entertainment is something that society needs to survive. If the animals are treated fairly and taken well care of then what is the harm? Do you know what the horse is thinking? He might be having the time of his life running around the track. I know that when I have watched dog races the dogs are some of the happiest that I have ever seen once then get back to their owners after they race.

If using an animal soley for the entertainment of humans and to make money is wrong then how do you watch major league baseball? Isn't that what we are doing to our own kind? Tell me what assistance Ryan Howard hitting a homerun gives society other than making it money?

We can take it a little further as well if you want to. What does making money do? It assists society. We have to have money to buy the things that we need in life. We have to stimulate the economy and if you think for a second that the Kentucky Derby doesn't stimulate that heck out of the economy, especially in Kentucky, then you are dead wrong.

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Originally Posted by dickay

lol'd at the bold part, and love the comparison to professional athletes. How dare their coaches make them run, do pushups and other physically exhausting punishments during their development:

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I think free's point is that athletes have a choice in the matter. Horses don't.

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Originally Posted by cadmus2166

I think free's point is that athletes have a choice in the matter. Horses don't.

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Don't bother. I answered all his "points" years ago. It's the same old tired song and dance. For some reason he doesn't see a difference in animals used to actually benefit society in some way and pointlessly exploiting animals for amusement, and in his world capturing whales and dolphins to preform at SeaWorld is the same as a cat using a litterbox.

I've never been to a horse race, or a greyhound race. I know there have been efforts to end greyhound racing due to the practices and fire from animal welfare groups. I feel like, somewhere in the future, both would be gone forever, just wisps of history like cockfighting. I also envision NASCAR being run on electric motors, rather than gas, though...so that future may be 15-20 years off, or 100, depending on our smarts.

I look forward to a future where Kentucky has better ways of stimulating its economy, and our culture has moved on to better forms of entertainment. In the old days, when Gladiators were at the coliseum, and Aztecs gathers for celebration, it wasn't 'entertainment' unless there was human death, or at least the constant threat of it. As the centuries pass, our average entertainment will hopefully be less atrocious.

Except for MTV, the Kardashians, and all the reality crap teeny boppers watch on TV...ugh. Gladiator bloodsport is better than that in most ways. :)

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Originally Posted by free2131

Don't bother. I answered all his "points" years ago. It's the same old tired song and dance. For some reason he doesn't see a difference in animals used to actually benefit society in some way and pointlessly exploiting animals for amusement, and in his world capturing whales and dolphins to preform at SeaWorld is the same as a cat using a litterbox.

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That's pretty sad.

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Originally Posted by cadmus2166

I think free's point is that athletes have a choice in the matter. Horses don't.

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Run those suicides or you're off the team.

Horses have same choice.

Does the police dog have a choice using his positions? No. But it's a purpose he finds palatable so it's ok. My only point is that he refuses to acknowledge the hypocrisy of his position. At the highest level these forces are cared for immensely, theyre bred for racing and they want to race. They thrive on it. The whip included. Given the choice at its core sure it would Rather in the wild. That's no different than the medics dog police dog or the cat that free holds hostage in his house

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Originally Posted by dickay

At the highest level these forces are cared for immensely, theyre bred for racing and they want to race. They thrive on it. The whip included. Given the choice at its core sure it would Rather in the wild. That's no different than the medics dog police dog or the cat that free holds hostage in his house

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You are clinically insane. BTW, those choke collars you swear to? Real humane...

http://www.dog-games.co.uk/photos/ar...ong_collar.jpg

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Originally Posted by dickay

Run those suicides or you're off the team.

Horses have same choice.

Does the police dog have a choice using his positions? No. But it's a purpose he finds palatable so it's ok. My only point is that he refuses to acknowledge the hypocrisy of his position. At the highest level these forces are cared for immensely, theyre bred for racing and they want to race. They thrive on it. The whip included. Given the choice at its core sure it would Rather in the wild. That's no different than the medics dog police dog or the cat that free holds hostage in his house

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Dude if you really believe this, you are a Class A douchebag, with no empathy for anything.

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Originally Posted by dickay

Run those suicides or you're off the team.

Horses have same choice.

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http://www.tubechop.com/watch/3425437

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Originally Posted by free2131

You are clinically insane. BTW, those choke collars you swear to? Real humane...

http://www.dog-games.co.uk/photos/ar...ong_collar.jpg

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While that picture is disturbing, it is very misleading. I have used that kind of collar on several dogs and have never seen anything like that. It is actually recommended by most dog rescues and trainers. That dog was obviously being abused on purpose. Anyone can purposely abuse an animal with ANYTHING. The collar when properly used does not do that. That is also not a choke collar it is a prong collar.

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Of all the tools used in dog training, perhaps none is more widely misunderstood and maligned than the prong collar (also known as the pinch collar). Many well-meaning but misinformed people assume that judging by its looks, the prong collar is a barbaric device intended to "stab" a dog's neck in order to correct misbehavior. While walking my own dogs on this type of collar I have encountered complete strangers who think nothing of telling me how cruel I am to use such a harsh device. While I am indifferent to this type of comment, I worry that similar incidents will drive responsible dog owners away from using this excellent, effective and kind (yes, kind) training tool on dogs that benefit from it the most. This article is meant to reassure those who are already using the collar or are considering it and more importantly, to educate those who think it is "cruel" or unfair to the dog.

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http://www.dru.org/prongcollar.htm

http://solidk9training.com/2012/06/1...trainig-tools/

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Originally Posted by MichelleWie

While that picture is disturbing, it is very misleading. I have used that kind of collar on several dogs and have never seen anything like that. It is actually recommended by most dog rescues and trainers. That dog was obviously being abused on purpose. Anyone can purposely abuse an animal with ANYTHING. The collar when properly used does not do that. That is also not a choke collar it is a prong collar.

http://www.dru.org/prongcollar.htm

http://solidk9training.com/2012/06/1...trainig-tools/

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well said michelle, talk about your classic strawmen. Lets ban prong collars and guns now, since they are clearly responsible for the actions of their idiotic owners.

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Originally Posted by dickay

well said michelle, talk about your classic strawmen. Lets ban prong collars and guns now, since they are clearly responsible for the actions of their idiotic owners.

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http://reactiongifs.me/wp-content/up...l-seriouly.gif

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Originally Posted by free2131

http://reactiongifs.me/wp-content/up...l-seriouly.gif

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Lol, nothing gets past u captain obvious :rolleyes:;)

Dick living up to his name