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Zito going to the Bullpen!
Code:
Rec. ERA
2002 23-5 2.75
2003-08 Avg. 11-11 4.07
Quote:
SAN FRANCISCO -- Barry Zito was demoted to the bullpen Monday by the San Francisco Giants, who hope the former ace can correct his problems by working in relief.
The move was first reported by ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney.
Zito, who only 16 months ago signed a $126 million, seven-year contract with the Giants to lead their rotation, was informed of the move in a meeting with manager Bruce Bochy.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3372794
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
Worst free agent signing. Ever.
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
Maybe Zito can play another position? The Giants could use a...well, I guess any other position, really.
Maybe they can trade him to the Yankees for Pavano?
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
Yep at least other signings, like hampton, had injuries to blame for the bad luck, but SF signed a self-described "flaky", soft-tossing lefty who walks way too many batters.
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alloutwar
Maybe they can trade him to the Yankees for Pavano?
As a Red Sox fan, even i have to admit that the Yankees aren't THAT dumb.
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gRYFYN1
Yep at least other signings, like hampton, had injuries to blame for the bad luck, but SF signed a self-described "flaky", soft-tossing lefty who walks way too many batters.
Hampton at least pitched okay for 4 years of the contract, too...
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
Oh, and hit 15 home runs!
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
Actually, I think I saw an article in the bay area times about Zito entering in an agreement with BALCO...something about cream and clear...I think the Giants may have a new large-headed slugging outfielder. Of course, his arm isn't too good...
Oh yah, here is that article...
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Hampton at least pitched okay for 4 years of the contract, too...
Didint work well for Colorado where he went 21-28 with an ERA over 5.50 (and i think they are still picking up part of his salary)
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gRYFYN1
Didint work well for Colorado where he went 21-28 with an ERA over 5.50 (and i think they are still picking up part of his salary)
He had one average year and one bad year with Colorado, while providing excellent hitting.
Colorado stopped paying in 2005 (a total of $43 million), and also has to pay his $6 million buyout for his 2009 option.. The Marlins also paid $23.5 million, which sucks for them especially because he never even pitched for them.
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
Signing him to that long of a deal was dumb...one year with incentives would have made more sense....now they have a high priced relief pitcher who may not work there as well.
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RickD
Signing him to that long of a deal was dumb...one year with incentives would have made more sense....now they have a high priced relief pitcher who may not work there as well.
There would have been no way Zito would've gone for a 1 year deal, but teams should not have been willing to sign him to such an outrageous deal, and should've waited until he brought his asking price down. Read a report today that the Mariners had offered him 6 years/$90 million which is still really high for a #3 starter, which is what Zito was at the time of the signing, but more reasonable than the deal the Giants gave him.
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
Has to be the worst free agent signing of all time in the sport of baseball. Another example of an agent completely and totally manhandling a GM in negotiations. You wanna blame agents for the state of the game? Please! Blame GM's willing to sign ridiculous contracts like this one!
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
The whole thing about Zito is that the Giant's should have known. Heck, the Met's should have known. Look:
Code:
Year Ag IP H H/BFP R ER HR BB BB/BFP SO SO/BFP BFP
2000 22 92.7 64 0.170 30 28 6 45 0.120 78 0.207 376
2001 23 214.3 184 0.204 92 83 18 80 0.089 205 0.227 902
2002 24 229.3 182 0.194 79 70 24 78 0.083 182 0.194 939
2003 25 231.7 186 0.194 98 85 19 88 0.092 146 0.153 957
2004 26 213 216 0.233 116 106 28 81 0.087 163 0.176 926
2005 27 228.3 185 0.194 106 98 26 89 0.093 171 0.179 953
2006 28 221 211 0.223 99 94 27 99 0.105 151 0.160 945
2007 29 196.7 182 0.214 105 99 24 83 0.098 131 0.154 850
2008 30 28.7 41 0.291 30 24 4 15 0.106 11 0.078 141
Increasing hits per batter, increasing walks per batter, and decreasing strikeouts per batter... not a good pattern. In my opinion, Barry Zito was overused from 2001-2006, and now him and the Giants are paying the price. Hindsight is 20/20, but the trend was there before he signed with the Giants. The Mets sure must be sighing in relief though.
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
Yep, all his stats were trending in the wrong direction, and it's a shame that a major league front office couldn't recognize that (or didn't care).
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
Don't forget about the Mets though, who were ready and willing to deal Lastings Milledge for him.
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
I recognized that sorry about a year ago in ficticious play seams to translate real here too
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
What story?
:confused:
I'm usually pretty good at deciphering sheepster, but I can't figure that one out...
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
At the time, as a Giants fan that didn't want them to sign Zito, it felt to me like they did so because they felt they had to do something. It seemed more about the PR of signing a big contract than about making the team better. I know Sabean is no genius, but I really feel that the ownership forces (one way or another) him to do certain things, either that or he is just a yes man alltogether.
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
I'm one to own up when I thought a team should make a move and they did and it didn't work out. I say that because I hate monday morning QB's.
Is there anyone that actually thought that contract was good when they signed it? His performance was fading with Oakland prior to the big contract, and this is no surprise. Very dumb move by the Giants, and thats not Monday morning because I thought the same when they made the signing. I think the Giants overbid themselves.....who else was offering that kind of coin for this guy?
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dickay
I think the Giants overbid themselves.....who else was offering that kind of coin for this guy?
The only other offer that I've heard go public is the Mariners offer of 6 years/$90 mil.
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
where do you get those stats from Ohm's? I couldn't fine them on baseball reference but I could be blind
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
rogue9
where do you get those stats from Ohm's? I couldn't fine them on baseball reference but I could be blind
The regular stats are from B-R.com, bit I did the /BFP ones myself in Excel. Really easy, copy, paste, hits/BFP, etc...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dickay
I'm one to own up when I thought a team should make a move and they did and it didn't work out. I say that because I hate monday morning QB's.
Is there anyone that actually thought that contract was good when they signed it? His performance was fading with Oakland prior to the big contract, and this is no surprise. Very dumb move by the Giants, and thats not Monday morning because I thought the same when they made the signing. I think the Giants overbid themselves.....who else was offering that kind of coin for this guy?
I will admit that I was on the fence about Zito when the Giants made that deal. It wouldn't be the first time that a change of scenery has helped revitalize a guy's career, after all. It's easy to say now, but I did immediately have reservations about the length of the deal. The cost I could see as justifiable at the time. He's a pitcher, he did win a Cy Young, and he's a lefty, so the initial price was at least a justifiable gamble for a year or two... a seven year deal says that you're not gambling though, it says that you know that the guy is going to perform. Zito has proven that he's unable to do that now, which makes the Giants look like idiots.
The Mets were almost ready to deal for him too though, so it's not as though giving him that sort of deal is completely whacked. Just poor judgment in my opinion, based mostly on desperation since the Giants have to know how much trouble their franchise is currently in.
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
It was a bad deal especially in the context of the Giants being an aging team and being on the cusp of having to rebuild. It's not as though they were "one player away" from winning the big one. They have come to the realization now that rebuilding is what they are faced with, but they are saddled with that ridiculous contract for 5-6 more years. Zito would have made more sense at least for the Mets, although it would still have been too much even money for them.
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
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The Mets were almost ready to deal for him too though, so it's not as though giving him that sort of deal is completely whacked. Just poor judgment in my opinion, based mostly on desperation since the Giants have to know how much trouble their franchise is currently in.
You're 100% right about the length of the deal. I don't think the Mets would've come anywhere near that length. Minaya has mentioned many times that the owners will rarely approve deals in excess of three years because they can't insure those deals. Insurance on these high priced long term deals can't be bought and is something many don't realize.
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
In my opinion, deals longer than 4 years are pretty much always dumb. You're better off biting the bullet and either paying more or getting a lesser talent for a few years than being saddled with some monster contract for 5, 6, or 7 years. Those contracts never pay of at the end.
...of course, they usually pay off for the first couple of years. usually.
lol
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
To put things in perspective, the Mets inked Johan Santana to a shorter deal for a slightly higher average annual value.
That is how bad the Zito deal is.
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
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Originally Posted by
ohms_law
In my opinion, deals longer than 4 years are pretty much always dumb. You're better off biting the bullet and either paying more or getting a lesser talent for a few years than being saddled with some monster contract for 5, 6, or 7 years. Those contracts never pay of at the end.
...of course, they usually pay off for the first couple of years. usually.
lol
Seeing you highlighted 'never' I figured I'd jump in and point out some longer than 3 year deals that have worked in recent years. I believe these were all longer than 3 yrs;
Manny Ramirez
Alex Rodriguez
Mike Mussina
Greg Maddux
Todd Helton
Vladimir Querrero
Pedro Martinez (6 yrs with the Sawx)
Griffey Jr. (mariners 6 yr deal)
Albert Pujols
Barry Bonds (possibly best value deal ever, 6 yrs for like 40 someodd million)
Aramis Ramirez
Chase Utley
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
Pretty much all of them could have been signed for shorter terms for more money... and then after the 3rd year, resigned probably for less.
A-Rod, ManRam, Pedro, and Bonds are the obvious exceptions, but their exceptional players. Not everyone has the chance to even sign that caliber of player in the first place, so the regular rules don't apply regardless.
Edit: Add Pujols.
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
I agree. Under the age of 28, the longest deal you want to sign for any player is 5 years, after that you will be safer for a 3 year deals,
Thinking about it, 28 might be the last year you would get every dollar out of a 5 year deal from the player (if they stay healthy), they say thou there are two peaks, one at 27-28, and the next one at around 31 years old...
Usually players drop off at 35-36.
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
Funny part about Griffey, is that his extension with Cinci looks totally different than his deal with Seattle.
1996-2001?
And in 2001, he was injuried.
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
I agree with Ohms, contarcts longer than 4 years is a poor idea.
Signing players when they are young (griffey, pujols, utley) is the execption.
It really shows with pitchers though long-term pitcher contracts are bad, only the very rare exception do they work out, and then usually only with very rare talents. (like maddux and martinez)
Even the Mussina deal wasnt really all that great, after 3 years he dropped off dramatically, look at his 2005 and 2006 stats and remeber the contarct had him making 19 Million in each of those years.
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
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Pretty much all of them could have been signed for shorter terms for more money... and then after the 3rd year, resigned probably for less.
Man you hate admitting when you're wrong on something. I agree, in most cases a shorter term deal is better for the team. But thats not the case all the time, and certainly signing guys longer than three years doesn't, as you put it, 'never' work out.
Now you claim that it would've been smarter to sign 'most' of those listed short term and resign them for less. I disagree. If you look at most of the salaries on those deals, thats a double edged sword. The way salaries have escalated in recent years, getting a guy long term can be a win/win. Take Utley and the recent Longoria deals. If they get seriously hurt and don't produce, thats a loss. But if they perform they will soon outperform their contract value with relation to the escalating market making it a great deal for the teams involved.
At least join me and admit the word 'never' is probably a bit strong here lol. :p
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
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It really shows with pitchers though long-term pitcher contracts are bad, only the very rare exception do they work out, and then usually only with very rare talents. (like maddux and martinez)
You guys make it sound like everyone is getting these long term deals. I see it as almost 1 to 1. For every long term deal that works out, there's a long term deal that busts.
I'll agree that more probably bust than boom, 1 to1 ratio isn't quite accurate but it's more accurate that the terminology 'very rare exception. Frankly not many get these long term lucrative contracts. I also agree I wouldn't want to do them, or would be very hesitant at the least. But for sake of discussion, lets at least be accurate.
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
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Originally Posted by
dickay
The way salaries have escalated in recent years, getting a guy long term can be a win/win.
This is actually what I do in historical play, I sign players to a 7 year deal, then do a 3 year extension (Team Option) and they are signed to a discount, but I do this when they are 25 or less....
I save millions of dollars by doing this ;)
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Re: Zito going to the Bullpen!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dickay
The way salaries have escalated in recent years, getting a guy long term can be a win/win.
This is actually what I do in historical play, I sign players to a 7 year deal, then do a 3 year extension (Team Option) and they are signed to a discount, but I do this when they are 25 or less....
I save millions of dollars by doing this ;)
