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Dumbest GM in Baseball
Bill Bavasi continues to kill the Mariners with his boneheaded moves. Word is that he's signed catcher Kenji Johjima to a contract extension through 2011, his age 35 season. This almost certainly means the end of top prospect Jeff Clement's days as a catcher, limiting him to 1B or DH (Which should have been done long ago if all along Bavasi knew he was going to extend Kenji). Why does he continue to handicap the team with horrible signings of veterans on their decline? And the notion that adding Bedard and Silva would put the team over the top into the top 4 in the AL? Ludicrous.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
J. P. Riccardi. Next question.
--Pet
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
The answer is clearly, CLEARLY Brian Sabean, with Bavasi, Colletti, and Ricciardi duking it out for 2nd place.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
The answer is clearly, CLEARLY Brian Sabean, with Bavasi, Colletti, and Ricciardi duking it out for 2nd place.
Not Ed Wade?!?!
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
Also, I like Joh. So I like this extension.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
Sabean? San Francisco still has a Major League team?! I forgot. But yes, he is truly awful.
I like Kenji too. But signing a catcher through his age 35 season when your top prospect plays the same position is just ignorant. Bavasi clearly loves his veterans over the youngsters. All too typical.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
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Originally Posted by
WHAK0985
I like Kenji too. But signing a catcher through his age 35 season when your top prospect plays the same position is just ignorant.
Also, signing said catcher while he has a 43 OPS+ doesn't exactly look good either. Now, obviously, I'm not saying he should base his decisions on 65 at bats, but it just doesn't make it look any better...
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Bavasi clearly loves his veterans over the youngsters. All too typical.
Hey, at least he has young hitters! :p (cough sabean again cough)
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Also, signing said catcher while he has a 43 OPS+ doesn't exactly look good either. Now, obviously, I'm not saying he should base his decisions on 65 at bats, but it just doesn't make it look any better...
Hey, at least he has young hitters! :p (cough sabean again cough)
But we have only two pitching prospects. *CoughBavasisucksCough*
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
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Originally Posted by
Coach Owens
But we have only two pitching prospects. *CoughBavasisucksCough*
Because you traded some to get an excellent pitcher.
Bavasi does suck, but he's at least fielding a competitive team...
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Because you traded some to get an excellent pitcher.
Bavasi does suck, but he's at least fielding a competitive team...
Competitive? Ha! Our offense and defense are both horrible. And who knows how much Bedard will actually pitch these next two years?
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
I think Sabean maybe gets bonus (is that the right word?) points for all that shady steroid complicity he and the rest of the organization was accused of.
And apparently it's rumored that Bavasi had offered Johjima a contract in the offseason but it was a low ball offer. Now that Kenji is all kinds of awful so far, he decided to take the contract that was offered.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
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Originally Posted by
Coach Owens
Competitive? Ha! Our offense and defense are both horrible. And who knows how much Bedard will actually pitch these next two years?
Your offense is bad (though signing Barry Bonds would make you instant AL West favorites...), your defense is slightly below average, and your pitching decent. You competed last season, and it's likely you'll compete this season.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
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Originally Posted by
Coach Owens
Competitive? Ha! Our offense and defense are both horrible. And who knows how much Bedard will actually pitch these next two years?
Yes. Look at this lineup. I can smell the mediocrity halfway across the country.
CF-L Ichiro
2B-R Lopez
LF-L Ibanez
3B-R Beltre
DH-B Vidro
1B-R Sexson
C-R Johjima
RF-R Bloomquist
SS-R Betancourt
This team is going to overtake the Angels? Beat out the Indians/Tigers/Red Sox/Yankees for the Wild Card? Get out of here.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Your offense is bad (though signing Barry Bonds would make you instant AL West favorites...), your defense is slightly below average, and your pitching decent. You competed last season, and it's likely you'll compete this season.
We shouldn't've competed last season though. Trust me, we're probably an 85 win team at the max.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
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Originally Posted by
WHAK0985
This team is going to overtake the Angels? Beat out the Indians/Tigers/Red Sox/Yankees for the Wild Card? Get out of here.
Nobody said that...
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Originally Posted by Coach Owens
We shouldn't've competed last season though.
But you did.
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Trust me, we're probably an 85 win team at the max.
85 wins is competitive. It's not a joke.
At least you're fielding a roughly .500 or better team, is my point.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Nobody said that...
But you did.
85 wins is competitive. It's not a joke.
At least you're fielding a roughly .500 or better team, is my point.
Look, the Angels are wayyyyy better than us. They're 14-9 without their two best pitchers and with Vladimir Guerrero struggling.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WHAK0985
Sabean? San Francisco still has a Major League team?! I forgot. But yes, he is truly awful.
I like Kenji too. But signing a catcher through his age 35 season when your top prospect plays the same position is just ignorant. Bavasi clearly loves his veterans over the youngsters. All too typical.
Actually, I would not blame this one on the GM. Nintendo owns the team, Nikon is a huge sponsor, the Mariners are covered by Japanese TV, radio, and press, the head of scouting is a scout from Japan...
I would guess this one come down from the top, and is about media and advertising revenue.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
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Originally Posted by
Coach Owens
Look, the Angels are wayyyyy better than us. They're 14-9 without their two best pitchers and with Vladimir Guerrero struggling.
Okay....I'm not seeing where I'm contradicting that.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
My point is that it was foolish for Bavasi to think that this team would overtake said teams. He constructed this year's team on the assumption that making additions would improve the record of last year's team to the point where they would make the playoffs, when clearly any competent fan of baseball can see that last year was a fluke.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
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Originally Posted by
WHAK0985
My point is that it was foolish for Bavasi to think that this team would overtake said teams. He constructed this year's team on the assumption that making additions would improve the record of last year's team to the point where they would make the playoffs, when clearly any competent fan of baseball can see that last year was a fluke.
I agree.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
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Originally Posted by
SirKodiak
Actually, I would not blame this one on the GM. Nintendo owns the team, Nikon is a huge sponsor, the Mariners are covered by Japanese TV, radio, and press, the head of scouting is a scout from Japan...
I would guess this one come down from the top, and is about media and advertising revenue.
Interesting point. But isn't Ichiro enough to satisfy that requirement? If that really is the basis of extending Kenji's contract, then the entire Front Office/Management is more incompetent than I originally thought.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
What was even worse is that we didn't sign Thomas, and Thomas signed with the A's. Even thou they don't have a spot for him...Thomas is a OBP magnet.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
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Originally Posted by
boomboom
What was even worse is that we didn't sign Thomas, and Thomas signed with the A's. Even thou they don't have a spot for him...Thomas is a OBP magnet.
Absolutely. I don't even think there was a slight indication at all that the Mariners were looking at Thomas as an option. Incompetence all around.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
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Originally Posted by
boomboom
What was even worse is that we didn't sign Thomas, and Thomas signed with the A's. Even thou they don't have a spot for him...Thomas is a OBP magnet.
You can't blame that on the Mariners front office. Thomas said he really wanted to go back to Oakland.
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Originally Posted by WHAK0985
Absolutely. I don't even think there was a slight indication at all that the Mariners were looking at Thomas as an option. Incompetence all around.
That's true...they definitely should have tried to get him, but I don't think we know one way or the other if they did or not.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
You can't blame that on the Mariners front office. Thomas said he really wanted to go back to Oakland.
That's true...they definitely should have tried to get him, but I don't think we know one way or the other if they did or not.
Yes I can, they could have done something to try to get him to a multi-year contract...for example, for sure money next season...
They could have told him he has a spot and will bat 5th in the order for the rest of the season....
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
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Originally Posted by
boomboom
Yes I can, they could have done something to try to get him to a multi-year contract...for example, for sure money next season...
I don't think giving an extension to an injury-prone, aging slugger is a smart move.
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They could have told him he has a spot and will bat 5th in the order for the rest of the season....
And so did the A's, and Thomas clearly wanted to go back to Oakland.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
Every move that Bavasi has made has been bad. Even the Eric Berdard move was bad...
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
Signing Raul Ibanez was a good move. The Adrian Beltre deal looks kind of expensive, but I'm sure nearly every other GM would've given Beltre a similar deal. Besides that, Beltre's been a solid hitter and a great defender, so the move wasn't bad like the Sexson signing was..
But, most of his moves have been bad. Especially his trades. I didn't even realize until I looked it up how downright awful all of his trades have been:
Freddy Garcia for Miguel Olivo, Jeremy Reed, and Mike Morse
Carlos Guillen for Ramon Santiago
Asdrubal Cabrera for Eduardo Perez
Shin-Soo Choo for Ben Broussard
Randy Winn for Jesse Foppert
Rafael Soriano for Horacio Ramírez
He's without a doubt a bad GM, but I just think Sabean's worse.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
Didn't one of Sabean's team make it to the World Series...what is Bavasi record verses Sabeans'?
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
Wow, those are some bad moves...
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Freddy Garcia for Miguel Olivo, Jeremy Reed, and Mike Morse
Carlos Guillen for Ramon Santiago
Asdrubal Cabrera for Eduardo Perez
Shin-Soo Choo for Ben Broussard
Randy Winn for Jesse Foppert
Rafael Soriano for Horacio Ramírez
He's without a doubt a bad GM, but I just think Sabean's worse.
Wow reading that was painful. I especially love the acquisitions of the Indians' DH platoon. AWFUL.
But look at Sabean's body of work as well, not just limiting his decisions in the past year. I don't know this off the top of my head, so I'm just asking. Has Sabean's decision making in the past been as bad as Bavasi's as a whole?
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
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Originally Posted by
boomboom
Didn't one of Sabean's team make it to the World Series...what is Bavasi record verses Sabeans'?
More like one of Barry Bonds' teams made it to the World Series...Sabean's record is very good, but not because of the moves he made, but because he benefitted from having one of the greatest hitters of all-time in the middle of the greatest peak of all-time. One of Sabean's only good moves was getting Jeff Kent.
He got too comfortable with having Barry carry the team, forcing him to always have a "win now" attitude, and the look of the team and the farm system now show it.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
But, most of his moves have been bad. Especially his trades.
Don't forget this golden nugget that is still plaguing the team to no end today.
Chris Snelling and Emiliano Fruto for Jose Vidro.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
Beltre was his best move, and that wasn't a good move. The Ibanez sign was not Bavasi but rather Lee Pelekoudas and Chuck Armstrong sign....
Lee Pelekoudas loved Ibanez when he was here but we had no spot for him the first time around.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
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Originally Posted by
WHAK0985
Wow reading that was painful. I especially love the acquisitions of the Indians' DH platoon. AWFUL.
Especially for two YOUNG guys...now Broussard is playing for a division rival and Eduardo Perez is doing Baseball Tonight...
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But look at Sabean's body of work as well, not just limiting his decisions in the past year. I don't know this off the top of my head, so I'm just asking. Has Sabean's decision making in the past been as bad as Bavasi's as a whole?
Sabean has been downright awful at developing position players. He hasn't developed ANY quality major league hitters. He has a veteran player fetish, and has signed many aging veterans to multi-year deals, and gives up draft picks for free agents where it makes little sense. He gave up his first round pick to sign Michael Tucker. Michael freakin' Tucker.
He's openly admitted to not being willing to spend money on the draft. "Quite frankly, we're very reluctant to overspend in the draft. We're cautious in that regard because it's so fallible. Our focus is spending as much as we can and being as wise as we can at the major-league level and using the minor leagues as a supplement and not necessarily leaning on it totally." And look at what spending money on the draft does - see Detroit, New York, Boston.
From here:
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nick_gee: Can you elaborate on the reason for signing Michael Tucker just hours before the deadline for offering players arbitration expired, thus forfeiting this year's first-round draft pick. Was it a mistake? Or was it just a way of saving money?
Sabean: We were able to use the first-round draft pick money to apply to our Major League payroll and figured, by where we pick in the first round, we can get the same type of player or pitcher for half the price with our second selection.
How a GM does not understand the value of a first round pick over a second round pick is beyond me
And there's this GM:
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shaundarbie: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Jim] Brower, [Scott] Eyre, [Matt] Herges, [Dustin] Hermanson, [Brett] Tomko, [A.J.] Pierzynski, Feliz, [J.T.] Snow, [Jeffrey] Hammonds, [Dustan] Mohr and Tucker -- obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
And then there's Barry Zito.
And giving up Joe Nathan, Francisco Liriano, and Boof Bonser for one year of A.J. Pierzynski.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
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Originally Posted by
WHAK0985
Don't forget this golden nugget that is still plaguing the team to no end today.
Chris Snelling and Emiliano Fruto for Jose Vidro.
At least you got some value, and the two players you gave away didn't amoutn to anything yet.
Garcia did fine away from Seattle, and the mariners got noting from the 3 players they gave up. Guillen became a star, Santiago went back to the Tigers. Winn's still fine, Foppert's done. Soriano turned in an outstanding year, Ramirez was horrid. Choo and Cabrera look like decent major leaguers, Broussard's in Texas and Perez is at ESPN. Frankly, I think the VIdro trade was one of his better trades...:eek: Which means, he's really bad at trading.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Especially for two YOUNG guys...now Broussard is playing for a division rival and Eduardo Perez is doing Baseball Tonight...
Well the Broussard deal wasn't terrible. Shin Soo Choo isn't exactly going to be a star.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Okay....I'm not seeing where I'm contradicting that.
But you're saying that they're going to compete this year which, unless they have an incredible amount of more luck, they won't.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
Well is it the GM's fault or the owner's when the team is cheap in drafts? And I would also argue, that the last few years ownership has put a lot of pressure on Sabean for a win-now mentality while Bonds was still around. That still doesn't excuse his awful free agent signings (Rich Aurilia? Aaron Rowand? BARRY ZITO????) but it does explain the motive. And yeah, the Pierzynski trade is pretty awful.
But you are right. He has shown a dislike for young players that is a bit baffling. In that respect, he and Bavasi have a lot in common.
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Re: Dumbest GM in Baseball
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Originally Posted by
WHAK0985
Well is it the GM's fault or the owner's when the team is cheap in drafts? And I would also argue, that the last few years ownership has put a lot of pressure on Sabean for a win-now mentality while Bonds was still around. That still doesn't excuse his awful free agent signings (Rich Aurilia? Aaron Rowand? BARRY ZITO????) but it does explain the motive. And yeah, the Pierzynski trade is pretty awful.
But you are right. He has shown a dislike for young players that is a bit baffling. In that respect, he and Bavasi have a lot in common.
Don't forget McLaren! :p
