If steroids is cheating...........

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Roids muddies the water.

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Yea, I think you're right... Steroids (more accurately, Performance Enhancing Drugs in general) have been too politicized.

Personally, my position on all of this stuff is generally "why not?" It's not as though any medical procedure can take Joe Sixpack and turn him into a pro athlete. More importantly, I think one of the biggest criticisms against this issue comes from a "haves vs. have nots" perspective, but there really aren't any "have nots" in athletics. Nobody is going to be giving Little Leaguers Lasik or other procedures just to improve their chances (or at least, I hope not... that's sort of a different issue). The potentially professional quality athletes are shaken out in High School, College, and the minor leagues, and there's always plenty of money available at those levels. Of course, just how much money is and should be available for prospects is a wider issue, but the fact is that the money is there. If the standard moves to include Lasik procedures (or whatever else) for players at the College or minor league level then pretty much all of the players will just do it. By definition their already not "normal" people anyway (in the sense that not everyone can be an athlete), so I just don't see what the problem is with enhancing their abilities.

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Originally Posted by Wassit3

yeah but what we want to know is how are you hitting curve balls now a days compared to before...

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I have it on reliable authority, that Lasik takes the curl out of the curve...

Can someone please tell me the name of one player, professional or not, in any sport, with 20/20 vision, who got Lasik Eye surgery to have incredible eyesight?

While we're naming anything that can enhance athletic performance, aren't Gatorade, Red Bull, and other energy drinks technically performance enhancers? I mean, they give you an added boost of energy.

LOL, see where this reasoning of "If it isn't natural and it makes you better, then it's bad" goes?

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

Can someone please tell me the name of one player, professional or not, in any sport, with 20/20 vision, who got Lasik Eye surgery to have incredible eyesight?

While we're naming anything that can enhance athletic performance, aren't Gatorade, Red Bull, and other energy drinks technically performance enhancers? I mean, they give you an added boost of energy.

LOL, see where this reasoning of "If it isn't natural and it makes you better, then it's bad" goes?

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OK, so the question is where do you draw the line ? Would it be okay for a player to do that?

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

Can someone please tell me the name of one player, professional or not, in any sport, with 20/20 vision, who got Lasik Eye surgery to have incredible eyesight?

While we're naming anything that can enhance athletic performance, aren't Gatorade, Red Bull, and other energy drinks technically performance enhancers? I mean, they give you an added boost of energy.

LOL, see where this reasoning of "If it isn't natural and it makes you better, then it's bad" goes?

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You're stating my point mets.......agreed, gatorade, red bull, and other energy drinks could give a player a boost. Players of yesteryear maybe didn't have that boost. I agree it's probably foolish to even be discussing them as performance enhancers, BUT.............where does it end and who draws the line??? If one sets precedent by allowing gatorades, red bulls, etc....how can that person get upset when a legal andro is used? Many doctors say HGH when used appropriately can build muscle and be healthy.

These are things we put into our body. I'm taking it a step further and asking the question, what if someone does something to their body to enhance performance? Why even ask the question about Lasik? If it's OK for someone with poor vision to get it and have better than 20/20 vision, why would it be wrong for someone with 20/20 vision to get it and enhance that even more?? Or if your achilles heel is injured, replace it with a prosthetic spring action heel which reduces stress on the body and enhances performance? Or what about the heart transplant I mentioned earlier?

The point is, there is new technologies like these prosthetic legs coming out all the time. We need to look at the long term effects of our decisions on the items we view as insignificant (enhancing vision through surgery).

Here's a good read, and ironically it matched the title of my thread lol.

http://www.slate.com/id/2116858/

I found on a couple websites including this one where Tiger Woods got Lasik to improve his 20/20 vision to 20/15. It also reads that Mark McGwire had high powered contact lenses to improve his 20/20 vision to 20/10.

LOL, it also reads that Gary Sheffield has vision BETTER than 20/20 and still tried to get Lasik. After reading this article, I think i'm going to get it lmao.

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Originally Posted by gRYFYN1

But the problem is that using steroids et al, in "safe" supervised doses will not yield any substantial effect. Meaning the only reason to use them is to abuse them.

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Depends your definition of "substantial." Steroids in safe, supervised doses, will have an effect.

Additionally, it doesn't even matter what anyone has actually done. The fact is that athletes already can have things done.

Again, we're way past the point where any serious athletics (including the Olympics) are performed by average people. None of us here (that I know of, anyway) are capable of going out and competing on a professional level in any sport. So, what's the harm in allowing athletes to enhance what they naturally have and improve our entertainment value?

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Originally Posted by ohms_law

Additionally, it doesn't even matter what anyone has actually done. The fact is that athletes already can have things done.

Again, we're way past the point where any serious athletics (including the Olympics) are performed by average people. None of us here (that I know of, anyway) are capable of going out and competing on a professional level in any sport. So, what's the harm in allowing athletes to enhance what they naturally have and improve our entertainment value?

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I'm somewhat on the other side on this issue ohms. I'm more posing the questions, but I do think there is harm as it raises the bar and makes becoming competitive in these individual sports even further away and more difficult. A trickle down effect through the minors, college sports, high school sports and younger occurs. Plus, if all technological advances are allowed to better then talent pretty soon they'll be like robots playing each other.

No doubt todays athletes are the greatest of all time due to improvements in a multitude of areas throughout history, but i think when we are talking about surgery's to enhance performance I think we are skirting a moral line I'd prefer not to cross. Today it is eye surgery, tomorrow pitchers are getting titanium alloy shoulders with nano-particles to allow fluid motion of the arm through the delivery.

Too much technology can be a bad thing.

Yea, and I don't think there's really such a thing as "too much" technology. As long as it's safe (including side effects), I don't really see what the problem is.

What about genetic engineering? If we could ensure that people are simply not genetically predisposed to diseases (and, we're close. closer than people generally think) what's wrong with that? Less cancers, less heart disease, things like that. Then, you move from there to enhancing the potential for strength, lung capacity, heart capacity, etc...

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Originally Posted by ohms_law

Yea, and I don't think there's really such a thing as "too much" technology. As long as it's safe (including side effects), I don't really see what the problem is.

What about genetic engineering? If we could ensure that people are simply not genetically predisposed to diseases (and, we're close. closer than people generally think) what's wrong with that? Less cancers, less heart disease, things like that. Then, you move from there to enhancing the potential for strength, lung capacity, heart capacity, etc...

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Good point...i'd bet in a laboratory somewhere they are growing the worlds perfect athlete in a test tube.

It's not as though they don't still need to work for it... The potential is there, and the nutrition and medical technology is there to enhance what already exists, but the person still needs to work out and practice.

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Originally Posted by ohms_law

It's not as though they don't still need to work for it... The potential is there, and the nutrition and medical technology is there to enhance what already exists, but the person still needs to work out and practice.

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Thats like saying it's OK to give a Lamborghini to to a driver in a stock car Nascar race. Sure, the car has great potential but the driver still has to harness and handle the car.

If the Lamborghini is available to every driver, why not?

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Originally Posted by ohms_law

If the Lamborghini is available to every driver, why not?

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So everyone should 'have' to get lasik or any other future surgery's which enhance productivity, or be genetically created (ie. own a lamborghini) just to have a chance to compete at the professional level?

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Originally Posted by dickay

So everyone should 'have' to get lasik or any other future surgery's which enhance productivity, or be genetically created (ie. own a lamborghini) just to have a chance to compete at the professional level?

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Why not? Everyone already must work out (often to "extreme" levels), eat special diets, be under specialized medical supervision, etc... It's not as though athletes lead otherwise normal lives already. That and their already far from average people. Have you seen any pro athletes in person? Their almost always tall and just plain big people.

Here is a post about a writer's experience with Canseco. In the post is a good reason not to take steroids, kids.

This link does contain some profanity, so don't click if you are offended, underage, or live in Iran, China, etc.

Great article in this months ESPN the Magazine on this exact subject. Brings up some very interesting ethical questions about technology and athletes. Check it out.