Re: Is Big Hurt Hall-bound?
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Originally Posted by
yankee hater
No way Griffey jr juiced. No way at all. If anything, he underperformed his potential because of nagging injuries steroids might have helped him recover faster from.
But, how do you know he didn't juice? How can you state that with 100% accuracy?
Now, like I said, there's nothing to indicate that he DID juice, so assuming that he didn't is what we should do, but there's also nothing to indicate that Sammy Sosa juiced, yet people assume he did, evne though we shouldn't.
That's the problem with this whole issue. Too often we assume who did or didn't do something based on what we think of that player. Griffey's a well-liked guy, so people assume he didn't do steroids. Sammy Sosa and Jeff Bagwell are thought of in a lesser light when it comes to their character, so people assume they did do steroids, even though no actual evidence exists, just as with Griffey.
I think the best way to approach the topic is this - Assume that every player did not do steroids unless there is substantial evidence that they did. You cannot run into any hypocrisy if you approach the steroid issue that way, as you can when you base your judgments on what you personally feel about the guy. For example of the hypocrisy which can be ran into, and I'm not pointing out anybody in this thread as nobody here has stated what they think about Sosa, there are very few people that think Griffey did steroids, yet there are numerous people that think Sosa did. Maybe hypocrisy is the incorrect term, but thinking that Griffey didn't juice and Sosa did is following irrational logic. No evidence of any sort exists against either player.
Re: Is Big Hurt Hall-bound?
It is a simple fact, he didn't get bigger from the age of 21-35. He still has the same arms and legs....He wears long sleaves because he is soo self conscience about his arms...
The reason he hit homeruns is because of his beautiful swing.
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Re: Is Big Hurt Hall-bound?
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Originally Posted by
boomboom
It is a simple fact, he didn't get bigger from the age of 21-35. He still has the same arms and legs....He wears long sleaves because he is soo self conscience about his arms...
The reason he hit homeruns is because of his beautiful swing.
He most certainly did get bigger, see attachments. And this is another thing I hate about deciphering who did or didn't do steroids without any actual evidence. Nearly every human being is bigger in their 30's than they were in their early 20's. Nevermind the fact that it's easily possible to get bigger without drugs. Getting bigger is not evidence of steroid use. Not getting bigger is not evidence that a player didn't use steroids.
Re: Is Big Hurt Hall-bound?
It looked like he got fat.
Re: Is Big Hurt Hall-bound?
On Ken Griffey's rookie card, his weight his listed as 195 lbs. Today, he's listed as 230 pounds. As a comparison, Bonds was 185 on his rookie card and listed at 240 today.
See? But this all just judgments now. A player can get big and if you don't want to think he did steroids, you can just say "He looked like he got fat". A player can get big because he got fat but if you want to say he did steroids, you can just say "Look he got big!"
I agree with you that I personally don't think Griffey did steroids, but I'm not going to state with certainty that he didn't. The only players for which I will talk about with certainty are those that have loads of evidence (Barry Bonds) or those that have tested positive (Rafael Palmeiro). Any player with no evidence or positive tests, I will assume didn't do steroids.
Re: Is Big Hurt Hall-bound?
I never claimed Sosa juiced. I think Bonds did (well, he supposedly admitted it to the grand jury). I'm pretty sure at this point Clemens did. Palmeiro tested positive. Giambi admitted it. Andy Pettite did too. McGwire may as well have.
Sosa's corked bat was an issue. He had some rather odd injuries. And beyond all that, he struck out a **** of a lot.
You can tell a lot, however, by a player's public character. Bonds was an arrogant jerk (by all accounts), who was so obsessed with becoming the greatest hitter of all time that he was willing to do anything to enlarge his own legend. Sad part about that is, he was a first ballot HOFer beforehand.
Griffey has always been self-effacing, polite, respectable, and modest about his accomplishments. He seems to recognize that he's done enough on the field to make himself one of the greats of the game, and he lacks the burning over-ambition (and thinly veiled racial prejudice) that fueled Bonds.
Bonds seemed the type to take steroids, because he was willing to do anything else to become great. Griffey recognized that he was great, and didn't seem to feel the need to be anything more than he was already (which is a first-ballot HOFer).
For what it's worth, I think Sosa was clean. He had some holes in his game, though, and nagging injury problems. The corked bat didn't help, either.
Re: Is Big Hurt Hall-bound?
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Originally Posted by
chuckwillard
I never claimed Sosa juiced.
I know. I never said anybody here claimed that.
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I think Bonds did (well, he supposedly admitted it to the grand jury).
He admitted that he used a cream substance and a clear substance which he didn't think were steroids.
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I'm pretty sure at this point Clemens did. Palmeiro tested positive. Giambi admitted it.
Yep.
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Andy Pettite did too.
HGH, not steroids.
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You can tell a lot, however, by a player's public character....etc.
Yes, I agree, and I don't mind using public character to form an opinion on whether or not you think a player did steroids. I just think that using public character as a basis to factually establish whether or not a player did steroids is a foolish thing to do. It's my opinion that Griffey didn't do steroids, and his public persona is part of the reason I have that opinion, but I think claiming with 100% certainity that he definitely did not do steroids is a stretch, as I don't think you can say that with any player from this era (except, perhaps, a guy like Frank Thomas who was calling for testing before it even became a big issue, if I recall correctly).
Public persona has its issues. For example, Andy Pettite was well-liked and loved by fans and the media, and yet he did HGH. Now, I don't think the HGH, which he says he took, while injured, a couple times, did anything to help his performance, but still
Re: Is Big Hurt Hall-bound?
OKAY! WHO VOTED NO!? :mad:
Next time, make it so you can see who voted for which option! :p
Re: Is Big Hurt Hall-bound?
Re: Is Big Hurt Hall-bound?
Re: Is Big Hurt Hall-bound?
Re: Is Big Hurt Hall-bound?
But for all you know, steroids did help him recover and he would have been hurt even more often and for longer without them. I personally don't think Griffey juiced, but in an era where steroid use is rampant, I think it's naive to assume unequivocally that anybody must be clean.
Besides, he seems like a good guy, but how well does anyone here actually know Griffey?
Re: Is Big Hurt Hall-bound?
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Originally Posted by
knicks0929
I personally don't think Griffey juiced, but in an era where steroid use is rampant, I think it's naive to assume unequivocally that anybody must be clean.
Yep, that's my exact stance.
