Question about historical play

I may have just broken the record for longest time between posts on any message board - last visited 08-19-2001:o So you can see I haven't played any BM since 2K2, mainly because I live in the UK and the game never ships over here (I don't give my credit card details out on the internet so I never buy stuff online) but I picked up the 2k8 version on a trip to Vegas recently and am ready to pick up from 7 years ago!

Obviously its almost a different game from the last version I owned but the main query I have is how does historical play work? Say I wanted to play as probably the worst team in major league history, the 1916 A's -

1) Do they play the same historical schedule as they did that year?

2) Do you still have to have a 5 starter pitching rotation? In reality there would have been 4 starters at most and no bullpen to speak of

3) There should be no amateur draft and no free agency, is this replicated in the game?

4) The only ways to get new players back then was either through trades or to buy them from a minor league team or have a scout find some kid playing semi pro or sandlot ball somewhere - nobody had a farm system until the Cardinals in the late 1920's. I presume this is impossible to replicate?

5) Because of the Reserve Clause there were no multi-year contracts handed out, players negotiated single year deals based on their previous years performance. This means that salaries could be frozen or actually reduce in value over several years..again I assume there is no way to simulate this in the game.

6) Does world War 2 break out? ;) I'm kind of joshing, but if you sim the war years do you lose a load of players to the services or does the game assume nobody was drafted into the military?

7) Does expansion kick in in 1962?

I know that there are parameters for setting 'realistic' concession prices and offensive production to match different eras, but what does that matter if you have free agency in 1930 or a specialist set up man and closer in 1918?

I have the feeling that the answers to most or all of my questions will be negative and the much heralded ability to play with any team from 1901 onwards simply means that you can have the rosters for early twentieth century teams, but the GM aspect will assume that 2008 baseball conditions apply.

I hope I am wrong, but would appreciate any feedback on this, otherwise I will just play with the most up to date rosters.

Welcome back Tigerschmuck!
:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tigerschmuck

1) Do they play the same historical schedule as they did that year?

---

No. The schedules are generated each time you begin a game.

Quote:

---

2) Do you still have to have a 5 starter pitching rotation? In reality there would have been 4 starters at most and no bullpen to speak of

---

The rotation length is customizable for your team, in the Bullpen screen. There's a drop down in the upper left of the dialog box where you can set 5-ma, 4-man, or 3-man rotations.
Unfortunately, the size of the bullpens is still locked at 11. for now.

Quote:

---

3) There should be no amateur draft and no free agency, is this replicated in the game?

---

Unfortunately, no. Long time gripe of mine, as well.

Quote:

---

4) The only ways to get new players back then was either through trades or to buy them from a minor league team or have a scout find some kid playing semi pro or sandlot ball somewhere - nobody had a farm system until the Cardinals in the late 1920's. I presume this is impossible to replicate?

---

Correct. Unfortunately. See above.

Quote:

---

5) Because of the Reserve Clause there were no multi-year contracts handed out, players negotiated single year deals based on their previous years performance. This means that salaries could be frozen or actually reduce in value over several years..again I assume there is no way to simulate this in the game.

---

All contracts are in modern terms. Free Agency exists throughout. We at least got "inflation" with Mogul 2008, so that money is very similar in value to what it was historically. So, there's no multi-million dollar contracts in the 1920's, for example.

Quote:

---

6) Does world War 2 break out? ;) I'm kind of joshing, but if you sim the war years do you lose a load of players to the services or does the game assume nobody was drafted into the military?

---

No. If you start a game during the war years, then many players will be (historically accurately) missing, but once the game starts no one actually leaves for military service. The bright side is that you can see what could have been possible, in baseball at least, sans either World War. but yea, this is another historical accuracy item that I've been after for a long time.

Quote:

---

7) Does expansion kick in in 1962?

---

Yes.

Quote:

---

I know that there are parameters for setting 'realistic' concession prices and offensive production to match different eras, but what does that matter if you have free agency in 1930 or a specialist set up man and closer in 1918?

I have the feeling that the answers to most or all of my questions will be negative and the much heralded ability to play with any team from 1901 onwards simply means that you can have the rosters for early twentieth century teams, but the GM aspect will assume that 2008 baseball conditions apply.

I hope I am wrong, but would appreciate any feedback on this, otherwise I will just play with the most up to date rosters.

---

I know what you're complaining about, believe me. All of these are topics that I've supported and brought up myself for... well, forever now. But at least the rosters and the monitary amounts are basically accurate for whatever time period you do play in. That's quite a bit better than any other Baseball sim can say right now, as far as I know.

ohms_law thank you very much for your prompt and detailed response.

What you have told me backs up my hunch that it would just be next to impossible to program several different baseball universes into one simulation. However -

Between 1900 -1950 pitchers completed 50 percent of their starts (on average). Win or lose, some guys were out there for nine innings more than 60 percent of the time. If you are going to reflect this accurately does that mean starting pitchers from that era could just have boosted endurance ratings to ensure that the same percentage of complete games show up in the stats? Although the idea intrigues me I just couldn't play a 'historical' simulation where teams in the 1920's have closers getting 40 saves a year or something.

If the historicaly 'missing' guys from WW2 aren't in the game if you start play from 1942-45, couldn't the simulation just remove them from the game anyway when you reach those years in a dynasty? I am not sure how teams handled this in real life but I presume Spring Training in 1943 and 1944 was pretty interesting!

If the game only allowed the Amateur Draft from 1965 and Free Agency to kick in from 1973 couldn't these just be closed options (greyed out or something) if you played prior to those years?

Quote:

---

Between 1900 -1950 pitchers completed 50 percent of their starts (on average). Win or lose, some guys were out there for nine innings more than 60 percent of the time. If you are going to reflect this accurately does that mean starting pitchers from that era could just have boosted endurance ratings to ensure that the same percentage of complete games show up in the stats? Although the idea intrigues me I just couldn't play a 'historical' simulation where teams in the 1920's have closers getting 40 saves a year or something.

---

The starter usage, historically, is pretty accurate. AI teams do tend to use 4 man, or even 3 man, rotations. Starters do have higher endurance. Additionally, starters in the early 20th century do tend to throw more pitches then modern day pitchers with the same endurance ratings.

Quote:

---

couldn't the simulation just remove them from the game anyway when you reach those years in a dynasty?

---

Yes, It just needs to be done. That sort of feature should be optional though, as many people, me included, like to see how things would have played out if the leagues hadn't been drained of talent due to the war. This is mostly a "what if" type of game, after all.

Quote:

---

If the game only allowed the Amateur Draft from 1965 and Free Agency to kick in from 1973 couldn't these just be closed options (greyed out or something) if you played prior to those years?

---

Right now their not optional at all. Their just always on, period. As with the war year players, this is a feature set which simply needs to be implemented.

Unfortunately for people like you and I, who primarily seem to enjoy historical play, the fact is that we're a minority of the market for these games. Most people want to (re)play the most reacent season, or go back a couple of seasons at the most. So, these sorts of improvements are simply on the back burner until other things are resolved. I do know that Clay wants to implement most if not all of these things, but there just hasn't really been time is all.

Quote:

---

I do know that Clay wants to implement most if not all of these things, but there just hasn't really been time is all.

---

Thats good to know.

I also really only play historical teams, I started 1 franchise in 2008 and only simmed 2 years before I got bored with it.

Yea... except I do also enjoy the modern game as well. I usually start expansion teams though, with expansion drafts done by hand I might add. I also can't wait for the custom expansion drafts to be implemented... which seems to be imminent (as in scheduled to appear this year). We just need to wait and see.

In terms of historical accuracy... really, we need to (respectfully) generate more noise about it. It's not likely to happen this year, but if we collectively keep after it then those improvements are likely to be on the plate for next year.

Exactly how did you do your expansion draft? I've been forever trying to think up a realistic way to do this but never could figure out realisticaly what players on each team would protect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big Mikey

Exactly how did you do your expansion draft? I've been forever trying to think up a realistic way to do this but never could figure out realisticaly what players on each team would protect.

---

I assume this is where you create a whole baseball universe from scratch and not just adding one or two expansion teams to an existing league? Otherwise you would just see which is the worst position player and pitcher on each team and protect everyone else

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tigerschmuck

I assume this is where you create a whole baseball universe from scratch and not just adding one or two expansion teams to an existing league? Otherwise you would just see which is the worst position player and pitcher on each team and protect everyone else

---

Teams get to protect 15 players, if i recall correctly, before the draft, and then an additional player (or two?) each round. I believe.

i believe he gets all fancy and uses Excel spreadsheets and other stuff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skudplayr

i believe he gets all fancy and uses Excel spreadsheets and other stuff.

---

Basically, yea.
:)

Here's a good thread with a few different methods presented: Expansion draft

How do you decide who there going to protect? Just your judgment on what you would do if you were them?

Sort of. Beerchacer and Rongar both presented more "scientific" methods as well. It depends on how in depth you want to get with it, really.

Well what I want to do is start in 98 where Tampa came in but conduct the draft myself rather than start with the team they have, or create a team using current rosters. So the more in depth the better. If you want to point me in the direction of where I can find those 'scientific' methods that would be apreciated. Do you have a link?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big Mikey

Do you have a link?

---

Yup, two posts above.

Sorry I completely missed that. It's what I get for going out drinking and staying up ridiculously late on a tuesday when I know I have to be up by 7 the next day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big Mikey

Well what I want to do is start in 98 where Tampa came in but conduct the draft myself rather than start with the team they have, or create a team using current rosters. So the more in depth the better. If you want to point me in the direction of where I can find those 'scientific' methods that would be apreciated. Do you have a link?

---

Hi, Mikey...for what it's worth, here is "Rongar's scientific approach" written for previous enquirers...it applies to the 07 & 08 versions of BM.

This is how I do mine: I go to a year of my choice, usually in the sixties, since I'm more familiar with the useful players of that era, you being a young fella (I presume), might want to play in a more recent year, where, incidentally, there are more players for the taking (30 teams in 2006, compared to 24 in the nineteen- sixties).

First thing I do is click on News/Standings...I'm looking for the weakest team available, so that in coming seasons, we go nowhere but up!

To do this, I click on any of the toolbars at the top of the screen "Streak"; "Last 10"; "E.R.A."; etc, and in the top right-hand corner of the new screen I see a box "projected record", indicating the AI's prediction of the strongest and weakest teams in the coming season.

In the year that I've chosen, this happens to be San Diego – at present I’m in Atlanta which happens to be the “default” team that we all land in when we begin a new game in this particular year. (say 1969), so I click on team/lineup , and in the dialogue box which then appears, I scroll down until I reach my chosen team.

The Padres starting line-up now appears, and these are some of the players that I intend to trade off for my draft choices.

First thing I do here, is to count all the players (fielders & pitchers) that I have available to trade, and find that I have 53 in all, which is plenty enough to trade with, since the maximum number I can take from the other 23 teams in the 2 Leagues is a total of 46, my requiring (by self-imposed rule) each team to give up one “unprotected” fielder and pitcher, each.

At the end of my drafting, I’ll ensure that the seven guys that I’ll have left over from the original team are the pick of the Padres – the idea is to trade off my deadbeats for their not-quite-deadbeats.

Personally, looking over this particular Padre line-up, I would reserve Jones; Kirby; Podres; and Caldwell; who were all good pitchers in real life, plus rl big hitter Nate Colbert, and a couple of young catchers, -NOT the first-stringer, Canizzaro – who can field well.

You’ll find that the pickings are lean, when it comes to unprotected pitchers and catchers, when drafting from the other teams

To ensure that I can get the players that I want from the other teams, I now click on League/Options/ Commissioner which mode enables me to do all kinds of cheery tweaking to the game.

For now, I just wish to strong-arm the competition into giving up some of its lesser players, so I click on Players/Trades and my team now appears, with another team below “Washington Senators”. This will be the first team that I’ll draft from.

As in real life, I’ll respect the “protected” and “rookie” rule.
For me, the first eight of the Senators’ batters, and the first seven of its pitchers will be “protected”…any fielder, and/or pitcher I scroll down upon after that, will be fair game, save if he be a rookie who has played not even one game in the major leagues (pink lines denote a “vet”, only blue lines appearing, shout “hands off!”)

In short. I pick Gary Holman, the best of a poor selection, because of his fielding & split-batting stats (I study the stats only in scouting reports, ignoring the text, which I consider to be mostly rubbish, and wish that BM would scrub, allowing us to write our own)

In return, I’ll give up catcher Canizzaro, whom I’d already resolved to sack ‘cos of his poor fielding – wiser heads than mine opine that a leaky catcher can undo one’s entire pitching corps.

Normally, the AI team could yea or nay the trade, but, in “Commissioner” mode, it has no choice. I click “Add to deal” for each of the respective players, then “Force Trade” and the switch is made – you’ll now find Holman to be the last in YOUR line of fielders, with Canizzaro, gone.

I now scroll down past the first seven “protected” Senator pitchers, and find one or two, not-bad relievers, however I was hoping to snag a starter, but no joy here – the Washington unprotected starting pitchers are either ineligible (true-blue) or inept (engorged ERAs)… so..

Back to the batters, a rule, strictly of my own, in expansion drafting, is, if that I can’t have one each of a pitcher or batter, from a particular team, then I’ll go for either two hitters, or two hurlers.

But the Senatar’s hitters look no better than they did the first time around, so, in the end, I decided to defer my final pick from Washington, until I see how I do with the other picks from the expansion draft.

So, I scroll up to the next team, St Louis Cards to take two picks from them….and so it goes, until I’ve grabbed two players each, from the 23 teams of my competitors.

I hope this helps.

Thanks, I'll have to decide who's to use either your's or beerchaser's but either way thanks for the help.