Baseball's All-Time Greatest Teams

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

Yes,they were both great players, generous people, both were great defense-wise and really good hitters for power and contact too. They should both be in the HOF.

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Well, Larkin's only weakness was that he couldn't stay on the field. But I'm failing to see how Trammell was better than Jeter. Sure, he was a better defender, and Jeter's strikeouts are problematic. However, he's got Trammell beat in virtually every other area. Better batting average and OBP, more power, more SB and a much better SB%, and all of that is after adjusting to account for the differences in era and home park. In order for Trammell to be better, his defense would have to be all-time great, which it isn't.

I think all 3 deserve induction, but if you're going to argue that one shouldn't make it, I don't see how it could be Jeter.

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Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies

Look at Jackie Robinson. Though he was a great player, he did not put up hall of fame #'s

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Yes he did. He was one of the best second basemen of all time.

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The same can be said for monte irvin and Larry doby.

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Irvin also got in for his negro league work.

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As for Troy Tulo, He is NOT overrrated. He is young and, as long as he stays healthy should play untill he is around 39-40.

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The same can be said for any player.

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I included so many young players because I think they will develop into potential hall of famers if all goes good.

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That IF is so huge that it's pretty silly to talk about them in Hall of Fame discussions.

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

I dunno who I hate more:

People who say Derek Jeter is a Hall of Famer or

People who say Mariano Rivera is a hall of famer

Both in no way deserve HOF induction (unless being arrogant jerks who win all the time makes you more qualified for the HOF),

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It's clear that you have some personal bias against those two players, so I don't think your opinion on it really can be considered valid. Present an actual argument against those two players, please, because both are clearly deserving of the Hall of Fame, based on the standards the Hall has set.

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Originally Posted by SoulMan

That difference is pretty significant, though. Especially when you take into account that Mariano has pitched in a DH league in a park that favors hitters more than Hoffman's park. And not that I condone it, but if we were to throw out Mo's 50 IP as a starter, his ERA would drop even further.

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The difference is HUGE. Hoffman's 2.73 ERA translates into a 147 ERA+. Mariano Rivera's 2.35 ERA translates itno a 194 ERA+.

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

Are you serious?

I can name 10 closers better than him:

1. Lee Smith
2. Trevor Hoffman
3. Dennis Eckersley
4. Goose Gossage
5.Bruce Sutter
6.Hoyt Wilhelm (was he a closer or just a relief pitcher?)
7. Billy Wagner
8. John Franco
9. Rollie Fingers
10. Robb Nen (retired while still in his prime)

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This list just proves how completely biased against Mariano Rivera you are, as well as what seems like you completely overvaluing the "save" stat.

Gossage and Eck at their peaks are the only two players you listed with a viable argument for being better than Rivera, and Rivera sustained his performance way longer than those two. Wilhelm was better once you factor in longevity, but I wouldn't place him under the "closer" umbrella.

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

Yes,they were both great players, generous people, both were great defense-wise and really good hitters for power and contact too. They should both be in the HOF.

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Derek Jeter: .317/.388/.462, 122 OPS+
Trammell: .285/.352/.415, 110 OPS+
Larkin: .295/.371/.444, 116 OPS+

Looks to me that Jeter was a better hitter than both of them, at power and contact. The only difference is the defense.

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Originally Posted by rogue9

I am not counting post season because in my opinion, getting to and through the post season is too dependent on the rest of the team.

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But one's postseason performance DOES impact his team's success and should play a role in HOF discussion. LACK of postseason appearances should NOT be held against a player, but a player's postseason success should be taken into account a little.

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Originally Posted by RedSoxRockies

Does anyone think Dave Concepcion should be in?

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I don't

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Originally Posted by SoulMan

and Jeter's strikeouts are problematic.

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no, they're not.

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Originally Posted by SoulMan

I think all 3 deserve induction, but if you're going to argue that one shouldn't make it, I don't see how it could be Jeter.

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Agreed 100%. They all are worthy of the Hall of Fame.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

It's clear that you have some personal bias against those two players, so I don't think your opinion on it really can be considered valid. Present an actual argument against those two players, please, because both are clearly deserving of the Hall of Fame, based on the standards the Hall has set.




This list just proves how completely biased against Mariano Rivera you are, as well as what seems like you completely overvaluing the "save" stat.

Gossage and Eck at their peaks are the only two players you listed with a viable argument for being better than Rivera, and Rivera sustained his performance way longer than those two. Wilhelm was better once you factor in longevity, but I wouldn't place him under the "closer" umbrella.


Agreed 100%. They all are worthy of the Hall of Fame.

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Yes, can you blame me for having bias against the evil Yankees?

Besides, I think one of the qualifications of the HOF is being a good person (not really factored in much, but I'm pretty sure that it says that somewhere on the HOF website). I don't consider Rivera or Jeter good people, nor do I consider anyone who has played for the Yankees since 1996 or so (except Robin Ventura, Al Leiter, and Darryl Strawberry) to be good people.

If Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera played for the Red Sox, the Mets, the Rangers, the Cubs or any other team I would respect them. But, I'm sorry, I just can't respect their character when they play for the New York Yankees. I really hope that every HOF voter who isn't a Yankee fan purposely leaves these 2 off their ballots in the future- to show everyone that the Evil Empire and all of its evil players cannot seize our beloved Hall of Fame.

Even if Jeter makes it in, he'd probably be too busy making out with A-Rod to show up to the induction ceremony :).

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

Yes, can you blame me for having bias against the evil Yankees?

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No, but I would hope that you could put your bias aside in favor of intellectual debate.

Nevertheless, debating you on this topic is completely useless. Clearly, you're not thinking rationally about it, as your above post exemplifies. You don't actually feel that Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera, as players, regardless of their team, are unworthy of the Hall of Fame. You just harbor some deep hatred for the Yankees and anybody that plays for them, except for players that also played for your favorite team, and because of this hatred, don't WANT them in the Hall of Fame. So, given that your opposition to their induction is based solely in hatred and has nothing to do with actual facts and information, I can't debate that.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

No, but I would hope that you could put your bias aside in favor of intellectual debate.

Nevertheless, debating you on this topic is completely useless. Clearly, you're not thinking rationally about it, as your above post exemplifies. You don't actually feel that Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera, as players, regardless of their team, are unworthy of the Hall of Fame. You just harbor some deep hatred for the Yankees and anybody that plays for them, except for players that also played for your favorite team, and because of this hatred, don't WANT them in the Hall of Fame. So, given that your opposition to their induction is based solely in hatred and has nothing to do with actual facts and information, I can't debate that.

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Okay, this following statement is gonna be really confusing and might not make much sense:

Rationally, they might be deserving of just cracking the hall of fame (not 1st year 99.9% of votes though). I just can't (even if I could I wouldn't) get over my immense hatred of those jerks in the pinstripes to rationally analyze any of their stats. I'm sorry, but that's something people will have to get used to when debating with me. I just can't help it.

Well, your opinion automatically doesn't count. You have so much hatred for the New York Yankees that you fail to see what Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera has been; Hall Of Famers. Your hatred is so visible and you even admit how you hate the Yankees. Now, I know that the Yankees are the most hated organization ever, but can the Yankees really help it that they've won so much, or been the most successful franchise in the history of American sports? Maybe the Mets will win one day :)

Anyways... about A-Rod and Jeter kissing? Well... http://content.ytmnd.com/content/9/5...fcc06de623.jpg

If that doesn't look like... uhh... 2 people from 'San Francisco', then I don't know what does, lol. (No offense to people really from San Fran)

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Originally Posted by koolzach1

Well, your opinion automatically doesn't count. You have so much hatred for the New York Yankees that you fail to see what Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera has been; Hall Of Famers. Your hatred is so visible and you even admit how you hate the Yankees. Now, I know that the Yankees are the most hated organization ever, but can the Yankees really help it that they've won so much, or been the most successful franchise in the history of American sports? Maybe the Mets will win one day :)

Anyways... about A-Rod and Jeter kissing? Well... http://content.ytmnd.com/content/9/5...fcc06de623.jpg

If that doesn't look like... uhh... 2 people from 'San Francisco', then I don't know what does, lol. (No offense to people really from San Fran)

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LOL- the picture at 42 seconds in this video is all the proof I need:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=a1pPEBV8lG8

This video is good too:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TYJJ-4C1xw8&feature=related

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

But one's postseason performance DOES impact his team's success and should play a role in HOF discussion. LACK of postseason appearances should NOT be held against a player, but a player's postseason success should be taken into account a little.

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True. But we weren't talking about the HoF in that side discussion, at least I wasn't, we were talking about people calling a player the best, be it current or all time.

Lol, jealous ones envy. Thanks for reminding me that the Yankees are still the greatest. They are still so envied!

BTW, got a few links that may interest you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcGS9SSZvYc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJD7L...eature=related

Lo.... "Choke, the official drink of the New York Mets."

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Originally Posted by koolzach1

"Choke, the official drink of the New York Mets."

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Hmm- it's obvious that Yankee fans are also plagarizers. I have a t-shirt that I bought in Boston last spring that says

"Choke, the official soft drink of the New York Yankees"

So, I think it's painfully obvious that almost all Yankee fans are bad people- along with almost all Yankee players/staff.

:eek::p

Houston, the part about Tulo, I was saying that he should play until 39-40, and over that time if he keeps playing like this or better, he should easily put up hall worthy numbers. As for Robinson, I guess I am forgetting his defence. And I did not consider Monte's ngro league time. And finally, has anyone noticed how quickly this thread moved off topic lol.

Oh yeah what was the topic about anyway...oh yeah how great the yankees are!

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Originally Posted by yankee hater

1927 Yankees, best ever.

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Nah, Big Red Machine is the best ever...

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Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies

Houston, the part about Tulo, I was saying that he should play until 39-40, and over that time if he keeps playing like this or better, he should easily put up hall worthy numbers.

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What makes you think he "should" play until he is 39 or 40? Nearly every decent player his age, if they keep playing at the same level, would put up Hall numbers if they played until they were 40. But that scenario is not likely.

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Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies

As for Robinson, I guess I am forgetting his defence.

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And his offense. Of second basemen all-time (50% of their games or more at 2B, and 1000+ games), Jackie Robinson is tied for 4th all-time with Joe Morgan, behind Roger Hornsby, Nap Lajoie, and Eddie Collins.

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

Nah, Big Red Machine is the best ever...

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Only if you refuse to ever acknowledge anything good about the Yankees.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Only if you refuse to ever acknowledge anything good about the Yankees.

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All 3 of their dynasties were mostly populated by overrated violent drunks, wait that's not a good thing...

Dwight Gooden anyone? Darryl Strawberry? Lol, can't be talking just about Yankee players. Sure, they played for the Yanks, but played for the Mets in their prime.

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

All 3 of their dynasties were mostly populated by overrated violent drunks, wait that's not a good thing...

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Wait, I thought we were talking about which teams were the best at playing baseball?

If those players were that good drunk, it's kind of scary to think about what they could've done sober.

Seriously. When discussing the "greatest team of all time", why don't we use what actually occurred on the field, and base our decisions on what the players did on said field, and the outcomes of the games on said field? You know, what actually measures how good you are at baseball.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Wait, I thought we were talking about which teams were the best at playing baseball?

If those players were that good drunk, it's kind of scary to think about what they could've done sober.

Seriously. When discussing the "greatest team of all time", why don't we use what actually occurred on the field, and base our decisions on what the players did on said field, and the outcomes of the games on said field? You know, what actually measures how good you are at baseball.

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Lots of people can't do that, because it's easier to just be a dumbass.

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

All 3 of their dynasties were mostly populated by overrated violent drunks, wait that's not a good thing...

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Luckily, the team you name in your onscreen alias has never been connected with unsavory character...oh...never mind.

Seriously, don't you have to be a rather large hypocrite to be railing against the Yankees for having 'bad guys' and 'buying player's when you're a METS fan?! Last I checked, the Mets have had more than their share of absolute asswipes wear their uniform (as MOST organizations have), and they weren't exactly scrimping when it comes to payroll...

Your search for DRUG ADDICTION AND ABUSE in New York Mets returned 79 articles

1975 Cincinnati Reds

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Originally Posted by Arctic Blast

Luckily, the team you name in your onscreen alias has never been connected with unsavory character...oh...never mind.

Seriously, don't you have to be a rather large hypocrite to be railing against the Yankees for having 'bad guys' and 'buying player's when you're a METS fan?! Last I checked, the Mets have had more than their share of absolute asswipes wear their uniform (as MOST organizations have), and they weren't exactly scrimping when it comes to payroll...

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Dwight Gooden and Darryl Strawberry (drugs) and Vince Coleman and the other Mets who threw a lit firecracker at a bunch of kids are the only bad people to play for the Mets so far.

I can name at least 10 overrated jerks that have played for the Yankees:

1. Babe Ruth (fat alcoholic)
2. Billy Martin (violent alcoholic)
3. Derek Jeter (Acts like he's better than everyone)
4. Gay-Rod (Money-hungry player who also acts like he's better than everyone-plays to hurt people)
5. Reggie Jackson (violent player who acted like he was better than everyone)
6. Mickey Mantle (violent alcoholic)
7. Joe Dimaggio (violent alcoholic, left his son to rot while he enjoyed all the money he earned from baseball)
8. Steve Howe (Do we need an explanation here?)
9. Roger Clemens (violent roider)
10. David Wells (violent alcoholic)
11. Lou Gehrig (not a jerk- but very overrated- why does getting sick and dying make him a hero?)
12. Darryl Strawberry
13. Dwight Gooden
(If I'm including them with the mets, I'm including them with the Yankees)
14. Jim Leyritz (Drunk driver/murderer)
15.George Steinbrenner (does he count? I hate his guts)
16. Hank Steinbrenner (does he count? I hate his guts as well)
17. Roger Maris (alcoholic)
18. Andy Pettite (roider)
19. Jason Giambi (roider)
20.David Justice (roider)
21. Chuck Knoblauch (roider)
22. Jason Grimsley (played for the Yanks- didn't he)
23. Ron Villone (roider)
24. Kevin Brown (roiding idiot who punched a clubhouse wall and broke his hand :) )
25. Gary Sheffield (roider-BALCO)
26. Hal Steinbrenner (his last name is Steinbrenner, he must be a jerk)
27. Mike Stanton (roider-played for Yanks 5 YEARS, played for Mets 2 years)
28. Kenny Rogers (shoved a cameraman)


That's all I can think of for now...

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

Dwight Gooden and Darryl Strawberry (drugs) and Vince Coleman and the other Mets who threw a lit firecracker at a bunch of kids are the only bad people to play for the Mets so far.

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Yeah. I'm sure. The only bad people EVER.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Yeah. I'm sure. The only bad people EVER.

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Well name me some other bad Mets then...

I named you 19 bad Yankees. You can't name any bad Mets beyond the 4 or so I gave you.

Well, using your definition of a "bad person":

Dwight Gooden (drugs, drugs, and more drugs)
Daryl Strawberry (drugs, drugs, and more drugs)
Vince Coleman (throwing firecrackers)
Keith Hernandez (cokehead)
John Milner (amphetamine user)
Todd Hundley (dirty steroid user)
Matt Franco (roider)
Mike Stanton (roider)
Scott Schoeneweis (roider)
Paul LoDuca (fan favorite roider)
Kurt Radomski (clubhouse guy, huge roid dealer)
Mo Vaughn (roider)
Todd Pratt (roider)
Lenny Dykstra (roider)
Guillermo Mota (roider that the Mets rewarded with a 2-year deal after he failed a drug test)
Fred Wilpon (hey, I hate his guts)
Carlos Beltran (money hungry player)
David Wright (thinks he's better than everyone)
Jose Reyes (thinks he's better than everyone)

lol

I don't know why anyone bothers arguing with HGM. I have yet to see him lose an argument. :cool:

Hey Houston, you left out Paul Lo Duca(not with them still, but did use steriods, even if it was before the Mets.) And Metsguy, you left out a reason to hate Gay-Rod, and that is he plays to hurt people and is money hungry

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Originally Posted by rogue9

I don't know why anyone bothers arguing with HGM. I have yet to see him lose an argument.

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That's not true.

I just don't lose arguments when one side bases their argument on emotion and I use actual logic. But when I've debated someone that also uses logic, I've lost before. ;)

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Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies

Hey Houston, you left out Paul Lo Duca(not with them still, but did use steriods, even if it was before the Mets.)

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You're right. Added him.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Well, using your definition of a "bad person":

Dwight Gooden (drugs, drugs, and more drugs)
Daryl Strawberry (drugs, drugs, and more drugs)
Vince Coleman (throwing firecrackers)
Keith Hernandez (cokehead)
John Milner (amphetamine user)
Todd Hundley (dirty steroid user)
Matt Franco (roider)
Mike Stanton (roider)
Scott Schoeneweis (roider)
Paul LoDuca (fan favorite roider)
Kurt Radomski (clubhouse guy, huge roid dealer)
Mo Vaughn (roider)
Todd Pratt (roider)
Lenny Dykstra (roider)
Guillermo Mota (roider that the Mets rewarded with a 2-year deal after he failed a drug test)
Fred Wilpon (hey, I hate his guts)
Carlos Beltran (money hungry player)
David Wright (thinks he's better than everyone)
Jose Reyes (thinks he's better than everyone)

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Wright and Reyes are nice people.From interviews that they give it's quite clear that they aren't full of themselves, as you are suggesting.

Oh yes, but every friggin' Yankee player is a jerk. Though, the Mets and Yankees both play in New York, only the Yankees are arrogant punks.

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

[/B]Wright and Reyes are nice people.From interviews that they give it's quite clear that they aren't full of themselves, as you are suggesting.

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I've never seen an interview with A-Rod or Jeter that makes it seem like they're full of themselves, as you seem to suggest. Based on your list, it seems that you just assume that if a player wins a championship, he's full of himself.

I happen to think that Reyes and Wright are fine people, but if we're basing our lists just off gut feelings and personal hatred of a team, then Wright and Reyes are arrogant screw ups.

(Not that I hate the Mets. I'm just speaking from a "hate everything Met" point of view, as you are speaking from a "hate everything Yankee" point of view)

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

I've never seen an interview with A-Rod or Jeter that makes it seem like they're full of themselves, as you seem to suggest. Based on your list, it seems that you just assume that if a player wins a championship, he's full of himself.

I happen to think that Reyes and Wright are fine people, but if we're basing our lists just off gut feelings and personal hatred of a team, then Wright and Reyes are arrogant screw ups.

(Not that I hate the Mets. I'm just speaking from a "hate everything Met" point of view, as you are speaking from a "hate everything Yankee" point of view)

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fighting ill-logical reasoning with ill-logical reasoning never works....

now back to the subject at hand I think the 1927 yankees are the greatest becaue even if you remove their best player, ruth they still would win the championship

You know what, I am tired of all this New York talk, so I guess I am going to start talking from a "hate everything Chicago view".
1. Ozzie Guillen: Violent, Insolent, over agressive manager
2. A.J Perzynski: Violent player who can lead to fights
3.Michael Barret: Very violent, would strangle #2 and #4 if he could/
4. Carlos Zambrano: Overrated over emotional violent player
5. Juan Uribe: May have played a role in a shooting
6. the "Black Sox". This is self explanitory.
and leads to #7 Shoeless Joe, #8 arnold Gandil, #9 Eddie Cicotte, #10 Claude Williams, Oscar Felsch, #11 Fred Mcmullin.
12 Fergeson Jenkins Drug addict
13: Ironic how Mark Prior, Mr. Injury is #13
14 His partner in crime Kerry Wood

The point is - every team has had bad people, violent people, drug users, etc. throughout their history.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

That's not true.

I just don't lose arguments when one side bases their argument on emotion and I use actual logic. But when I've debated someone that also uses logic, I've lost before. ;)

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Well, I haven't seen it :D

Now I have 28 bad Yankees on my list. Beat that.