Baseball's All-Time Greatest Teams

It isn't an easy task choosing between them, but statistically these are the four best teams in baseball history. Enjoy this journey through the glorious past of baseball greats.

Ask baseball fans who the greatest team of all time is and the most common answer would probably be the 1927 Murders Row New York Yankees of Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig. But was that really the greatest baseball team of all time statistically? Were any other teams as good as or better than the 1927 Yankees? In order to try and answer that question I statistically analyzed all Major League baseball teams from 1901 until today.

What constitutes a great team? Obviously winning is a hallmark of a great team and so is dominating the opposition. So how did I quantify that statistically? I used five markers that teams must meet to be considered great.


1. Winning Percentage - Great teams should win the vast majority of their games. I used .700 as the cutoff.

2. Run Differential - The difference between how many runs scored minus how many runs given up per game on average. The higher the number the more dominating a team is. I used 1.80 as the cutoff.

3. Total Number of Great Players - Great players being defined as Hall of Fame players or Hall of Fame caliber players. Hall of Fame caliber players are players who fall short of the Hall of Fame but had Hall of Fame caliber seasons and failed to make it due mainly to longevity issues. I used a combination of at least 6 players who are Hall of Fame players or Hall of Fame caliber players as the cutoff.

4. Led League in Both Runs Scored and Fewest Runs Allowed - Teams should do both to be considered great and dominating. Some might argue that park effects play a great role in determining which teams lead the league in runs scored and runs allowed. That is true but great teams overcome all obstacles which is what makes them the greatest. (The Brooklyn Dodgers played in a bandbox in Ebbets Field yet led the National League in both categories in the 1955 season, while the Los Angeles Dodgers have played in the greatest pitchers park in baseball since Dodger Stadium was opened and they too led the National League in both categories in 1974 and 1978. None of the Dodger teams qualify on all categories though.)

5. Winning the World Series (provided there was a World Series) - how can a team be considered great if they did not win the World Series if they played in it? The 1906 Chicago Cubs won 116 games and had a winning percentage of .763, the best ever for regular season since 1901, but lost the World Series to their cross-town rivals the Chicago White Sox.

Only Four Teams Meet All Five Markers (Players Stats For The Year In Parenthesis):
1902 Pittsburgh Pirates - 103-36 (.741), led league in runs scored with 775 while allowing the fewest runs at 440, which works out to 5.58 runs scored per game while allowing 3.17 runs per game for a 2.41 run differential. No World Series played in 1902.

Three Hall of Famers on the team in Honus Wagner (105 runs, 91 RBI's, 42 SB's, .330 avg) Fred Clarke (103 runs, 29 SB's, .401 OBP) and Jack Chesbro (28-6, 2.17 ERA). Three more Hall of Fame caliber players in Jesse Tannehill (20-6, 1.95 ERA), Deacon Phillippe (20-9, 2.05) and Sam Leever (16-7, 2.39).

1927 New York Yankees - 110-44 (.714), led league in runs scored with 975 while allowing the fewest runs at 599, which works out to 6.33 runs scored per game while allowing 3.89 runs per game for a 2.44 run differential. Swept the Pittsburgh Pirates in the World Series.

Six Hall of Fame players on the team in Babe Ruth (158 runs, 60 HR's, 164 RBI's, 1.26 OPS), Lou Gehrig (149 runs, 49 HR's, 175 RBI's, 1.24 OPS), Tony Lazzeri (92 runs, 18 HR's, 102 RBI's, 22 SB's, .865 OPS), Earle Combs (137 runs, .356 avg, .925 OPS), Waite Hoyt (22-7, 2.63 ERA) and Herb Pennock (19-8, 3.00 ERA). Another player, Urban Shocker (18-6, 2.84 ERA), was Hall of Fame caliber and would be in the Hall of Fame if not for his untimely illness and death in 1928 from heart disease and pneumonia. Bob Meusel (103 RBI's, 24 SB's, .337 avg, .903 OPS) was also a Hall of Fame caliber player.

1939 New York Yankees - 106-45 (.702), led league in runs scored with 967 while allowing the fewest runs at 556, which works out to 6.40 runs scored per game while allowing 3.68 runs per game for a 2.72 run differential. Swept the Cincinnati Reds in the World Series.

Five Hall of Fame players on the team but Lou Gehrig does not really count as the Iron Horse's iron man streak of 2,130 consecutive games played came to an end just 8 games into the season due to Gehrig's unfortunate illness with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis or ALS. Which is also known as Lou Gehrig's Disease today.

http://www.sportales.com/Baseball/Ba...st-Teams.37150

cont.

The other four Hall of Famer's on the team were Joe Dimaggio (108 runs, 30 HR's, 126 RBI's, .381 avg, 1.12 OPS), Bill Dickey (98 runs, 24 HR's, 105 RBI's, .916 OPS), Red Ruffing (21-7, 2.93 ERA) and Lefty Gomez (12-8, 3.41 ERA). Also on the team were Hall of Fame caliber players Joe Gordon (92 runs, 28 HR's, 111 RBI's, .876 OPS), Red Rolfe (139 runs, 80 RBI's, .329 avg, .899 OPS) and Charlie Keller (87 runs, 83 RBI's, .334 avg, .947 OPS).

1998 New York Yankees - 114-48 (.704), led league in runs scored with 965 while allowing the fewest runs at 656, which works out to 5.96 runs scored per game while allowing 4.05 runs per game for a run differential of 1.91. Swept the San Diego Padres in the World Series.

Two sure Hall of Famers on the team in Derek Jeter (127 runs, 19 HR's, 84 RBI's, 30 SB's, .324 avg, .865 OPS) and Mariano Rivera (36 Saves, 1.91 ERA). The 1998 New York Yankees had a remarkable number of Hall of Fame caliber players in Jorge Posada (.825 OPS), Tino Martinez (92 runs, 28 HR's, 123 RBI's, .860 OPS) Chuck Knoblauch (117 runs, 31 SB's), Bernie Williams (101 runs, 26 HR's, 97 RBI's, .339 avg, .997 OPS), Paul O’Neill (95 runs, 24 HR's, 116 RBI's, .317 avg, .882 OPS), Orlando "El Duque" Hernandez (12-4, 3.13), Andy Pettitte (16-11, 4.24 ERA), David Wells (18-4, 3.49 ERA) and David Cone (20-7, 3.55 ERA) all playing regularly (with Darryl Strawberry and Tim "Rock" Raines playing part-time).

How Do They Stack Up?
Winning Percentage:

1. 1902 Pittsburgh Pirates - .741
2. 1927 New York Yankees - .714
3. 1998 New York Yankees - .704
4. 1939 New York Yankees - .702

Run Differential:

1. 1939 New York Yankees - 2.72
2. 1927 New York Yankees - 2.44
3. 1902 Pittsburgh Pirates - 2.41
4. 1998 New York Yankees - 1.91

Number of Great Players:

1. 1998 New York Yankees - 11
2. 1927 New York Yankees - 8
3. 1939 New York Yankees - 7
4. 1902 Pittsburgh Pirates - 6

All four teams led their league in both runs scored and fewest runs allowed.

Except for the 1902 Pirates, the other three Yankee teams all won the World Series by sweeping their opponents. No World Series was played in 1902.

What do we end up with? The four greatest teams in Major League baseball history. Trying to separate them is difficult. What's interesting to note is that 1902 Pirates had the best winning percentage of the four, the 1939 Yankees had the greatest run differential of the four, and the 1998 Yankees had the greatest number of Hall of Fame caliber players.

The 1927 Murders Row New York Yankees of Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig did not lead in any of the categories but were second in each one.

http://www.sportales.com/Baseball/Ba...-Teams.37150/2

Sounds good.

Just weird how he classified "Hall of Fame caliber" players. I mean, Tino Martinez is not "Hall of Fame caliber" and it has nothing to do with longevity issues. A good player with a great season or three isn't a "Hall of Fame caliber" player. But thats just nitpicking.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Sounds good.

Just weird how he classified "Hall of Fame caliber" players. I mean, Tino Martinez is not "Hall of Fame caliber" and it has nothing to do with longevity issues. A good player with a great season or three isn't a "Hall of Fame caliber" player. But thats just nitpicking.

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yeah but which team do you think is the greatest???

Love seeing all those Yankees teams there!

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Originally Posted by Wassit3

yeah but which team do you think is the greatest???

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I don't think there is one single "greatest team."

How is Jeter a sure Hall of Famer?


I HATE when people automatically assume a player is great because he has one (or more) World Series rings.

Bobby Kielty has a World Series ring (he won one last year), but that does not make him a great player. If he stays with the Sox for the next four years, solely off of the bench with a start or two here and there, and the Sox win each of the next 4 years (giving him 5 rings), would that make him a great, surefire HOF'er?

Derek Jeter is a surefire Hall of Fame for reasons beyond his World Series rings. Those are just "icing on the cake" so to speak. Comparing him to Kielty is a silly comparison.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Derek Jeter is a surefire Hall of Fame for reasons beyond his World Series rings. Those are just "icing on the cake" so to speak. Comparing him to Kielty is a silly comparison.

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And those reasons are???

All-star games? Arrogant Yankee fans vote him in every year undeservingly.

MVP Awards? Wait, he has none...

World Series rings? Take note of my previous point.

I consider him the type of player that I hate most- which I call the "sampler".

Other "samplers" include, IMO, Curtis Granderson and Jimmy Rollins.

Samplers are players who aren't very good in any one area, but are OK in many areas. Being a sampler (as Jeter is), IMO, does not warrant HOF induction.

Here are his statistics:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jeterde01.shtml

Tell me how that man is a Hall of Famer...

Although they only won 99 games, in my lifetime....judging solely by the 'eye test', I'd say the 1989 Oakland Athletics were the greatest team I've seen. I disagree with what you claim are 'HOF caliber' players on the NYY great teams of the 90's, but none the less it's hard to argue with their success.

I chose the A's of 89 because they had a similar swagger and brought all aspects of the game. The rotation was solid with four starters winning at least 17 games (Dave Stewart, Bob Welch, Mike Moore, and Storm Davis). Of course they had the Eck ending the games, the second best closer of alltime (next to Mariano of course) and arguable the most intimidating. On the offensive side they had arguably the biggest game changing offensive player of his era in Rickey Henderson. The commercials of him at 1st base making the pitchers sweat were classic. The bash brothers, steroids and all were fantastic. Canseco, McGwire...although neither having career years (canseco was injured much of the year) they were very intimidating to face and you have to remember that HR's were much much harder to come by during this time in baseball. Add Carney Lansford, Dave Parker, and Dave Henderson...and this team was a terror for opposing pitchers.

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

Here are his statistics:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jeterde01.shtml

Tell me how that man is a Hall of Famer...

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Jeter is very likely to obtain 3000 hits in his career which will MOST CERTAINLY make him a surefire HOF'er. I agree many Yankees overrate him, but compare his statistics to Kirby Puckett.

Jeter is a HOF'er if he retires today, and this is from an avid red sox fan. Despite his numbers being below the usual bar, they are equal to Puckett and Jeter is the captain of one of baseballs dynasty ballclubs, he has a handful of WS rings, and is one of the most clutch players of all time. A consistent 200 hit player who will reach 3000 barring injury ala Puckett.

I agree with Mets, Jeter has never been amazing, just ok. He benefits from playing in new york and on good teams. If he was on, say Tampa Bay, He would not stand a chance. I think a player who does is Troy Tulowitzki. Though young, he combines outstanding and likely to get better offence with gold glove caliber defence. Not to mention he also has gotten off to a young start, and should play for years to come. I think out of all active players, these stand out as the ones most likely to make the hall(in majors). Chipper Jones, Andruw Jones, John Smoltz, Tom Glavine, Randy Johnson, Johan Santana, Jose Reyes, David Wright, Ryan Braun, Prince Fielder, Ben Sheets(if he can stay healthy), Ken Griffey, Grady Sizemore, CC Sabathia, Roy halladay, Dustin Pedroia, Manny Ramirez, Troy Tulo, Matt Holliday, Todd Helton, Felik Hernandez, Ichiro, Hideo Nomo(only as a pioneer, even though early on he was good) and so on.....

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Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies

I agree with Mets, Jeter has never been amazing, just ok. He benefits from playing in new york and on good teams. If he was on, say Tampa Bay, He would not stand a chance. I think a player who does is Troy Tulowitzki. Though young, he combines outstanding and likely to get better offence with gold glove caliber defence. Not to mention he also has gotten off to a young start, and should play for years to come. I think out of all active players, these stand out as the ones most likely to make the hall(in majors). Chipper Jones, Andruw Jones, John Smoltz, Tom Glavine, Randy Johnson, Johan Santana, Jose Reyes, David Wright, Ryan Braun, Prince Fielder, Ben Sheets(if he can stay healthy), Ken Griffey, Grady Sizemore, CC Sabathia, Roy halladay, Dustin Pedroia, Manny Ramirez, Troy Tulo, Matt Holliday, Todd Helton, Felik Hernandez, Ichiro, Hideo Nomo(only as a pioneer, even though early on he was good) and so on.....

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Wow...talk about a homer. If I read this correctly you put Dustin Pedroia as more likely to be a HOF'er than Derek Jeter???????????????

Cmon now, look at the statistics. Jeter has been one of the most solid performers of all time in the playoffs, and i'm not talking about total number i'm talking average's. Although I too laughed at Yankees fans who called him 'Captain Clutch' when he laid in egg in the playoffs last year (as all yankees did) but i'm honest when I say that I know why he has that nickname. His regular season stats are on par with many HOF'ers of his age and none of them have the postseason success Jeter has had nor had they carried the 'C' on their chest for a dynasty ballclub.

There is no doubt Jeter will be in the HOF. You guys really need to get real with this one. I hate on the yankees with the best of them, but this argument is beyond silly. Best part is you left AROD off your list!?!?!?!?!?

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

I don't think there is one single "greatest team."

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:eek:

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

How is Jeter a sure Hall of Famer?


I HATE when people automatically assume a player is great because he has one (or more) World Series rings.

Bobby Kielty has a World Series ring (he won one last year), but that does not make him a great player. If he stays with the Sox for the next four years, solely off of the bench with a start or two here and there, and the Sox win each of the next 4 years (giving him 5 rings), would that make him a great, surefire HOF'er?

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I always think of Tito Landrum when you think of guys with rings that will never sniff the HOF, I think Landrumon 2...

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

And those reasons are???

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Very good production from a key defensive position for what will likely be about 15 seasons, with solid production for 2-4 more seasons.

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All-star games? Arrogant Yankee fans vote him in every year undeservingly.

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Let's see. All Star games are a horrible judge of a player, and they're only based on half a season, but let's look at each year in which Jeter made the all-star team, and see how he faired amongst his league's shortstops:

1998: Nomar Garciaparra and Alex Rodriguez were both better than him. A-Rod was an All-Star, Garciaparra wasn't.
1999: Him and Garciaparra were both roughly equal. Both were All-Stars.
2000: A-Rod and Garciaparra were better. All 3 were All-Stars.
2001: A-Rod was better, and was an All-Star.
2002: A-Rod, Garciaparra, and Tejada were all better. All of them, AND Jeter were All-Stars. Also, Jeter's second half was significantly worse than his first half, so even though his overall numbers don't look like anything special, they were certainly All-Star worthy at the half.
2004: Carlos Guillen was better. Both were all-stars.
2006: Carlos Guillen was arguably better, but did his best work in the second half.
2007: Carlos Guillen was arguably better. Both made the All-Star team.

So, considering, every single year Jeter was one of the top 3 shortstops in his league (except for 2002 where he was 4th), and every year, he AND the better guys all made the All-Star team (except Nomar in 1998), I'd say he is surely deserving of his All-Star appearances.

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MVP Awards? Wait, he has none...

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He arguably should have won in 2006. MVP awards are also a poor judge of a player.

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I consider him the type of player that I hate most- which I call the "sampler".

Other "samplers" include, IMO, Curtis Granderson and Jimmy Rollins.

Samplers are players who aren't very good in any one area, but are OK in many areas. Being a sampler (as Jeter is), IMO, does not warrant HOF induction.

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Jeter is VERY GOOD AT HITTING. You obviously aren't taking position into account. For a shortstop, there aren't many players that can match his production.

Of players that played more than half their games at shortstop, all-time, Derek Jeter ranks 5th in OPS+ (tied with Ernie Banks, if you lower the playing time threshold just a bit) - Honus Wagner, Alex Rodriguez, Arky Vaughan, and Nomar Garciaparra are ahead of him. By the time his career is over, A-Rod likely won't qualify for that, and Garciaparra will likely be behind him.

Look, I think Jeter is overrated, especially on his defense. He's a bad defender. He isn't the second coming of Jesus. Yankee fans think he's way better than he is. But saying he's not a great player and not a surefire Hall of Famer is just as bad as the exaggeration of his ability from Yankee fans.

As dickay said, he's very likely going to reach 3,000 hits, which, like it or not, makes him a surefire Hall of Famer. He's a deserving Hall of Famer if he retires today, and he's still got at least 5 more years left.

I went to the HOF website and compared Jeter's current numbers with the career numbers of various shortstops in the HOF....based on those numbers he qualifies now for the HOF!

Not a fan of Jeter...but compare his numbers to that of Pete Rose. In 2007, Derek Jeter turned 33 years old. In 1974, Pete Rose turned 33.
Their numbers through those two seasons.

Jeter-1835 games; 7429 at-bats; 1379 runs; 2356 hits; 195 HR; 933 RBI; 264 SB; 761 BB; 1291 K; .317 BA; .388 OBP; .462 SLG
Rose-1860 games; 7559 at-bats; 1217 runs; 2337 hits; 117 HR; 701 RBI; 97 SB; 782 BB; 723 K; .309 BA; .376 OBP; .432 SLG

I'd say those two are fairly similar lines, and other than the big difference in strikeouts, I beleive Jeter has performed at a higher offensive level than Pete Rose.

I don't think Jeter will play until he's 152 years of age like Rose, so he probably won't break the hits record, but he could reach 3500 hits (only five people have done that) and score 2000 runs (only seven have done that).

Toss in his championships, which fair or not do play a part in HoF voting and that he is not only one of the most recognizable names and faces in all of baseball, he's one of the most recognizable names and faces in all of American sports.

I think a more reasonable question may end up being, Can he receive the highest percentage of votes for the Hall of Fame?

YES!!!!!! (According to biased Yankees fans like me!)

Gotta love a guy saying Jeter isn't a Hall of Famer, then following that up with a list putting Hideo Nomo (only way this guy makes it is if we're including Japanese League stats, and I don't see Sadaharu Oh getting in any time soon!), Felix Hernandez (how can anyone make ANY predictions on this guy when he's still figuring things out at the major league level???) and Dustin Pedroia and Troy Tulowitzki (Yes, let's just make massive projections for guys with ONE YEAR IN THE BIGS). :D

Jeter!!Jeter!!Jeter!!

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Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies

I agree with Mets, Jeter has never been amazing, just ok. He benefits from playing in new york and on good teams. If he was on, say Tampa Bay, He would not stand a chance. I think a player who does is Troy Tulowitzki. Though young, he combines outstanding and likely to get better offence with gold glove caliber defence. Not to mention he also has gotten off to a young start, and should play for years to come. I think out of all active players, these stand out as the ones most likely to make the hall(in majors). Chipper Jones, Andruw Jones, John Smoltz, Tom Glavine, Randy Johnson, Johan Santana, Jose Reyes, David Wright, Ryan Braun, Prince Fielder, Ben Sheets(if he can stay healthy), Ken Griffey, Grady Sizemore, CC Sabathia, Roy halladay, Dustin Pedroia, Manny Ramirez, Troy Tulo, Matt Holliday, Todd Helton, Felik Hernandez, Ichiro, Hideo Nomo(only as a pioneer, even though early on he was good) and so on.....

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WOW! This has got to be the most ridiculous thing ever posted! At first I stopped reading when I first saw that Jeter has never been amazing. I figured, that I'd start reading again... bad idea. I then saw that Troy Tolowitzki has a shot at the HOF. He is very overrated, except for defense. His offense is helped a LOT by Coors, as he hits .250 away from Coors, and .317 at Coors. Chipper may get in the HOF, Andruw Jones hasn't a chance, imo. Smoltz, Glavine, Johnson all will get in. Santana, may have a shot if he continues to be as good as he has in his career. Reyes is very overrated; A decent defensive SS, that is a decent hitter with god like speed. Wright may have a chance if he continues what he has done, same goes for Fielder. Sheets? Sheets? Sheet? Seriously? He hasn't a shot at his pace. Griffey is a sure HOF'er. Sizemore? Not at how he has preformed this far. Sabathia, only if he can sustain his recent success. Don't see Halladay getting in. Pedroia??? Lol, all he can do is field well, and hit for average. Manny may have a shot if he can have a couple more good years. Holliday? If he can continue his success of last year. Helton probably won't be getting in, but could have a shot. Felix Hernandez? He is currently very inconsistent, so if he can turn it around, maybe. Ichiro will get in. Nomo? Heck nah! Most of these guys are very young, so I wouldn't make assumptions yet... Also, no Yankees? If you have Pedroia up there, you must have his superior in Cano. Where is A-Rod? Jeter... already been discussed, but will be a HOF'er. Godzilla should be in there if you are going to throw in Nomo (though Matsui doesn't belong, but Nomo definitely doesn't). Where is Mo Rivera? Lol, this is just a homer list here. I don't know if you're seriously, or just playing around, but I hope the latter.

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Originally Posted by dickay

Of course they had the Eck ending the games, the second best closer of alltime (next to Mariano of course) and arguable the most intimidating.

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Maybe I am missing something, but I fail to see how Mariano is the best all time closer. Or even the best current.

The only stat I see that he beats Hoffman in is ERA, but they are both under 3. Hoffman has a better op. batting average, and far more saves. Mariano hasn't saved 40+ games in 2 years, Hoffman has saved 40+ for the last 4.

For that matter, Billy Wagner has an ERA much closer to Mariano's, and a better op. BA. Granted not as many saves though. Both Wagner and Hoffman posted better ERAs last year than Mariano.

I am not taking into account post season success, I am looking at their numbers playing the same role on their respective teams. I just don't get it, there are 2 other guys that are long time closers that have numbers close to, or arguably better than Mariano's, yet everyone touts him as the best all time. I do not subscribe to the school of thought that says being on a yankee team makes you best at your position, maybe thats what I am missing.

My list is not complete because I had to go and I did not feel like adding hundreds of others who may stand a chance. These are not definates, just players who if play as expected may make it in and players who everyone knows will make it in. As for Nomo, though not the first Japanese player, he is a pioneer that led to teams signing more and more asians. Look at Jackie Robinson. Though he was a great player, he did not put up hall of fame #'s, but got voted in because of his role as a pioneer. The same can be said for monte irvin and Larry doby. So while based on numbers, Nomo does not stand a chance, he is a pioneer. As for Troy Tulo, He is NOT overrrated. He is young and, as long as he stays healthy should play untill he is around 39-40. If he plays at least at his level in 2007 he will have a good chance, let alone the fact that he is young and likely will get better. Like I said I did not finish the list, nor even come close. A0Rod will make it in if he retires now, Hoffman and Rivera are going in, if Cano stays strong he will definately be considered. I included so many young players because I think they will develop into potential hall of famers if all goes good. I think Andruw Jones will make it only because he styarted young and should, if he can return to previous strength, will likely hit 500 homers. Others I did not add that I think will make it in or may have a chance later on are: Omar Vizquel, Kenny Lofton, Curt Schilling, Frank Thomas, jim Thome, Papelbon if he stays a closer for 15-20 years and stays this good, Maddux of course, Miguel Cabrera, Jake Peavy and so on,(there is plenty more so dont attack me for leaving them off.) As for Sheets, only if he can stay healthy and pitch his best for a while. I like the stuff he has. Sabatia, now that I think about, he will not get in unles he repeats. Beckett may though. And Sizemore, in case you have not noticed kool, but he is predicted by many to become a 30homer, 30steal, high average knid of guy. If he becomes as good as they're saying, he is gunna be in. And Arctic, Felix started young and could become amazing. I am not saying these guys will make it in, but potentially they coul.

I dunno who I hate more:

People who say Derek Jeter is a Hall of Famer or

People who say Mariano Rivera is a hall of famer

Both in no way deserve HOF induction (unless being arrogant jerks who win all the time makes you more qualified for the HOF), but both have a 99.999% chance of getting in because of sportswriters who have no idea what the helll they are talking about who vote for people with shiny awards and a lot of HRs, wins, or saves(the only stats that 99 percent of sportswriters give a dammn about)and leave off big stars(Someone did vote for Todd Stottlemyre last year).

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Originally Posted by rogue9

Maybe I am missing something, but I fail to see how Mariano is the best all time closer. Or even the best current.

The only stat I see that he beats Hoffman in is ERA, but they are both under 3. Hoffman has a better op. batting average, and far more saves. Mariano hasn't saved 40+ games in 2 years, Hoffman has saved 40+ for the last 4.

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That difference is pretty significant, though. Especially when you take into account that Mariano has pitched in a DH league in a park that favors hitters more than Hoffman's park. And not that I condone it, but if we were to throw out Mo's 50 IP as a starter, his ERA would drop even further.

As for the Opp. BA argument, yes, Hoffman beats Rivera, .209 to .216, but Mariano has a significantly lower Opp. OPS - .565 to Hoffman's .602. You know why that is? Because Hoffman gives up a lot more homers. What's more important for a closer - being able to keep batters from reaching base, or to prevent those that do reach base from scoring? Sure, Mariano gives a up a few more hits here and there, but those runners end up being left on base.

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Originally Posted by rogue9

For that matter, Billy Wagner has an ERA much closer to Mariano's, and a better op. BA. Granted not as many saves though. Both Wagner and Hoffman posted better ERAs last year than Mariano.

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Wagner has a solid case for being just as good as the other two, but he doesn't have Hoffman's save numbers or Mariano's mystique, so he doesn't ever really get the credit he deserves.

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Originally Posted by rogue9

I am not taking into account post season success, I am looking at their numbers playing the same role on their respective teams. I just don't get it, there are 2 other guys that are long time closers that have numbers close to, or arguably better than Mariano's, yet everyone touts him as the best all time. I do not subscribe to the school of thought that says being on a yankee team makes you best at your position, maybe thats what I am missing.

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And another thing...why aren't you taking into account postseason success? I mean, Mariano's got another 1.5 season's worth of HOF-caliber pitching against the best teams of each season. Now granted, Hoffman hasn't had the type of postseason opportunities that Mariano has, but in his 13 playoff innings he's been solid...not quite impressive.

And I'm not trying to say that Mariano's absolutely the best that ever was, or even that he's significantly better than either Hoffman or Wagner, but it's harder to make an argument for Hoffman than it is to make one for Mo. A .007 difference in Opp. BA isn't enough. Wagner is closer to being even with Mo, but Rivera's got a 182-inning advantage on Wags, so we'll have to see how the rest of their respective careers go.

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Originally Posted by yankee hater

Jeter's numbers are favorable for being on track for HOF, and Mariano is the best closer ever, so he will be a shoo-in too.

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Are you serious?

I can name 10 closers better than him:

1. Lee Smith
2. Trevor Hoffman
3. Dennis Eckersley
4. Goose Gossage
5.Bruce Sutter
6.Hoyt Wilhelm (was he a closer or just a relief pitcher?)
7. Billy Wagner
8. John Franco
9. Rollie Fingers
10. Robb Nen (retired while still in his prime)

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

I dunno who I hate more:

People who say Derek Jeter is a Hall of Famer or

People who say Mariano Rivera is a hall of famer

Both in no way deserve HOF induction (unless being arrogant jerks who win all the time makes you more qualified for the HOF), but both have a 99.999% chance of getting in because of sportswriters who have no idea what the helll they are talking about who vote for people with shiny awards and a lot of HRs, wins, or saves(the only stats that 99 percent of sportswriters give a dammn about)and leave off big stars(Someone did vote for Todd Stottlemyre last year).

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Just curious, do you think Barry Larkin and Alan Trammell are deserving of the Hall of Fame?

Yes, Larkin and Trammel are deserving. Both were better than Jeter, along with being better than many other hall of famers, specifically most of the Giants from the 20's in the hall.

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Originally Posted by SoulMan

Just curious, do you think Barry Larkin and Alan Trammell are deserving of the Hall of Fame?

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Yes,they were both great players, generous people, both were great defense-wise and really good hitters for power and contact too. They should both be in the HOF.

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Originally Posted by SoulMan

And another thing...why aren't you taking into account postseason success? I mean, Mariano's got another 1.5 season's worth of HOF-caliber pitching against the best teams of each season. Now granted, Hoffman hasn't had the type of postseason opportunities that Mariano has, but in his 13 playoff innings he's been solid...not quite impressive.

And I'm not trying to say that Mariano's absolutely the best that ever was, or even that he's significantly better than either Hoffman or Wagner, but it's harder to make an argument for Hoffman than it is to make one for Mo. A .007 difference in Opp. BA isn't enough. Wagner is closer to being even with Mo, but Rivera's got a 182-inning advantage on Wags, so we'll have to see how the rest of their respective careers go.

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I am not counting post season because in my opinion, getting to and through the post season is too dependent on the rest of the team. Rivera has an unfair advantage in that regard, playing for a club that spends at least double on salaries what the rest the league does.

I was not trying to say you couldn't make the case that Rivera is the best. I was trying to say that everyone seems to take that for granted, and I think there are other cases to be made that come close enough that he is not a shoe-in for the "best" title. He is no doubt an excellent pitcher, but to say he is the best without acknowledging that you could make arguments for at least a couple others is annoying to me.

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Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies

Yes, Larkin and Trammel are deserving. Both were better than Jeter, along with being better than many other hall of famers, specifically most of the Giants from the 20's in the hall.

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Not so fast there...I'll be nice and give you the benefit of the doubt when it comes to Larkin, but I don't think the stats back you up when it comes to Trammell. I am, however, open to persuasion.

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Originally Posted by rogue9

I am not counting post season because in my opinion, getting to and through the post season is too dependent on the rest of the team. Rivera has an unfair advantage in that regard, playing for a club that spends at least double on salaries what the rest the league does.

I was not trying to say you couldn't make the case that Rivera is the best. I was trying to say that everyone seems to take that for granted, and I think there are other cases to be made that come close enough that he is not a shoe-in for the "best" title. He is no doubt an excellent pitcher, but to say he is the best without acknowledging that you could make arguments for at least a couple others is annoying to me.

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Fair enough. And I agree with you that people tend to say Mariano's the best just because he's got the whole NY thing going for him. I still think he's the best of this era, but Hoffman and Wagner are both right there as well. Mo and Hoffman both belong in the Hall of Fame, and should Wagner keep his current level of production up for the next few seasons, I think he should go in too.

Larkin won the Gold Glove Award from 1994-96, was the NL's MVP in 1995, and has been a 12-time All-Star: in the 1988-91, 1993-97, 1999, 2000, and 2004 seasons. He became the first major league shortstop to join the 30-30 club when he had 33 home runs and 36 stolen bases in 1996.

In his 18-year career with Cincinnati, Larkin batted for a .295 batting average, with 2340 hits, 198 home runs, 960 runs batted in, 1329 runs scored and 379 stolen bases. Baseball historian and expert Bill James has called Larkin one of the greatest shortstops of all time, ranking him #6 all time in his New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract.
Career highlights and awards
All-Star (NL): 1988-1991, 1993-1997, 1999-2000, 2004
MLB Most Valuable Player Award (NL): 1995
Lou Gehrig Memorial Award: 1994
Roberto Clemente Award: 1993
Gold Glove (NL SS): 1994-1996
Silver Slugger (NL SS): 1988-1992, 1995-1996, 1998-1999
Led NL in At Bats per Strikeout in 1988 (24.5)
Ranks 93rd on MLB Career Doubles List (441), tying Fred McGriff, and Roger Connor
Ranks 83rd on MLB Career Stolen Bases List (379)




Derek Jeter (Updated as of December 12, 2007)
Games AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB BA
Career 1835 7429 1379 2356 386 54 195 933 264 .317


AWARDS
4-time NY Yankees Player of the Year (1998-2000, 2006)
3-time AL Gold Glove Award (SS) (2004-06)
2-time Baseball America 1st-Team Major League All-Star (SS) (1999, 2004)
2-time AL Silver Slugger (SS) (2006-07)
South Atlantic League All-Star (SS) (1993)
Florida State League All-Star (SS) (1994)
Baseball America 1st Team Minor League All-Star (SS) (1994)
Minor League Player of the Year (1994)
NY Yankees Minor League Player of the Year (1994)
Baseball America Minor League Player of the Year (1994)
Florida State League Most Valuable Player (1994)
International League All-Star (SS) (1995)
AL Rookie of the Year (1996)
All-Star Game Most Valuable Player (2000)
World Series Most Valuable Player (2000)
TSN Award (SS) (2006)
Hank Aaron Award (2006)
This Year In Baseball Awards Top Hitter (2006)

numbers wise larkin and jeter are a wash.

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Originally Posted by Wassit3

Larkin won the Gold Glove Award from 1994-96, was the NL's MVP in 1995, and has been a 12-time All-Star: in the 1988-91, 1993-97, 1999, 2000, and 2004 seasons. He became the first major league shortstop to join the 30-30 club when he had 33 home runs and 36 stolen bases in 1996.

In his 18-year career with Cincinnati, Larkin batted for a .295 batting average, with 2340 hits, 198 home runs, 960 runs batted in, 1329 runs scored and 379 stolen bases. Baseball historian and expert Bill James has called Larkin one of the greatest shortstops of all time, ranking him #6 all time in his New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract.

Derek Jeter (Updated as of December 12, 2007)
Games AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB BA
Career 1835 7429 1379 2356 386 54 195 933 264 .317

numbers wise larkin and jeter are a wash.

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Yeah, but once you factor in defense (as in, Larkin actually deserved the Gold Gloves he got) and baserunning, Larkin starts to take an edge. Granted, by the time Jeter retires, his counting stats will most likely be a lot better, so that one does seem like a toss up to me.

Does anyone think Dave Concepcion should be in?

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Originally Posted by SoulMan

Mo and Hoffman both belong in the Hall of Fame, and should Wagner keep his current level of production up for the next few seasons, I think he should go in too.

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I agree with that statement.

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Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies

Does anyone think Dave Concepcion should be in?

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I think...maybe. The problem is, he's constantly compared to Ozzie, who was better at everything except hitting home runs. Concepcion's no slouch, though - he was probably the best NL shortstop of the 70s. I'd say he definitely deserved more consideration than he got.