Yes, Larkin and Trammel are deserving. Both were better than Jeter, along with being better than many other hall of famers, specifically most of the Giants from the 20's in the hall.
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Yes, Larkin and Trammel are deserving. Both were better than Jeter, along with being better than many other hall of famers, specifically most of the Giants from the 20's in the hall.
Yes,they were both great players, generous people, both were great defense-wise and really good hitters for power and contact too. They should both be in the HOF.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulMan
I am not counting post season because in my opinion, getting to and through the post season is too dependent on the rest of the team. Rivera has an unfair advantage in that regard, playing for a club that spends at least double on salaries what the rest the league does.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulMan
I was not trying to say you couldn't make the case that Rivera is the best. I was trying to say that everyone seems to take that for granted, and I think there are other cases to be made that come close enough that he is not a shoe-in for the "best" title. He is no doubt an excellent pitcher, but to say he is the best without acknowledging that you could make arguments for at least a couple others is annoying to me.
Not so fast there...I'll be nice and give you the benefit of the doubt when it comes to Larkin, but I don't think the stats back you up when it comes to Trammell. I am, however, open to persuasion.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
Fair enough. And I agree with you that people tend to say Mariano's the best just because he's got the whole NY thing going for him. I still think he's the best of this era, but Hoffman and Wagner are both right there as well. Mo and Hoffman both belong in the Hall of Fame, and should Wagner keep his current level of production up for the next few seasons, I think he should go in too.Quote:
Originally Posted by rogue9
Larkin won the Gold Glove Award from 1994-96, was the NL's MVP in 1995, and has been a 12-time All-Star: in the 1988-91, 1993-97, 1999, 2000, and 2004 seasons. He became the first major league shortstop to join the 30-30 club when he had 33 home runs and 36 stolen bases in 1996.
In his 18-year career with Cincinnati, Larkin batted for a .295 batting average, with 2340 hits, 198 home runs, 960 runs batted in, 1329 runs scored and 379 stolen bases. Baseball historian and expert Bill James has called Larkin one of the greatest shortstops of all time, ranking him #6 all time in his New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract.
Career highlights and awards
All-Star (NL): 1988-1991, 1993-1997, 1999-2000, 2004
MLB Most Valuable Player Award (NL): 1995
Lou Gehrig Memorial Award: 1994
Roberto Clemente Award: 1993
Gold Glove (NL SS): 1994-1996
Silver Slugger (NL SS): 1988-1992, 1995-1996, 1998-1999
Led NL in At Bats per Strikeout in 1988 (24.5)
Ranks 93rd on MLB Career Doubles List (441), tying Fred McGriff, and Roger Connor
Ranks 83rd on MLB Career Stolen Bases List (379)
Derek Jeter (Updated as of December 12, 2007)
Games AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB BA
Career 1835 7429 1379 2356 386 54 195 933 264 .317
AWARDS
4-time NY Yankees Player of the Year (1998-2000, 2006)
3-time AL Gold Glove Award (SS) (2004-06)
2-time Baseball America 1st-Team Major League All-Star (SS) (1999, 2004)
2-time AL Silver Slugger (SS) (2006-07)
South Atlantic League All-Star (SS) (1993)
Florida State League All-Star (SS) (1994)
Baseball America 1st Team Minor League All-Star (SS) (1994)
Minor League Player of the Year (1994)
NY Yankees Minor League Player of the Year (1994)
Baseball America Minor League Player of the Year (1994)
Florida State League Most Valuable Player (1994)
International League All-Star (SS) (1995)
AL Rookie of the Year (1996)
All-Star Game Most Valuable Player (2000)
World Series Most Valuable Player (2000)
TSN Award (SS) (2006)
Hank Aaron Award (2006)
This Year In Baseball Awards Top Hitter (2006)
numbers wise larkin and jeter are a wash.
Yeah, but once you factor in defense (as in, Larkin actually deserved the Gold Gloves he got) and baserunning, Larkin starts to take an edge. Granted, by the time Jeter retires, his counting stats will most likely be a lot better, so that one does seem like a toss up to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wassit3
Does anyone think Dave Concepcion should be in?
I agree with that statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulMan
I think...maybe. The problem is, he's constantly compared to Ozzie, who was better at everything except hitting home runs. Concepcion's no slouch, though - he was probably the best NL shortstop of the 70s. I'd say he definitely deserved more consideration than he got.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
Well, Larkin's only weakness was that he couldn't stay on the field. But I'm failing to see how Trammell was better than Jeter. Sure, he was a better defender, and Jeter's strikeouts are problematic. However, he's got Trammell beat in virtually every other area. Better batting average and OBP, more power, more SB and a much better SB%, and all of that is after adjusting to account for the differences in era and home park. In order for Trammell to be better, his defense would have to be all-time great, which it isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
I think all 3 deserve induction, but if you're going to argue that one shouldn't make it, I don't see how it could be Jeter.
Yes he did. He was one of the best second basemen of all time.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
Irvin also got in for his negro league work.Quote:
The same can be said for monte irvin and Larry doby.
The same can be said for any player.Quote:
As for Troy Tulo, He is NOT overrrated. He is young and, as long as he stays healthy should play untill he is around 39-40.
That IF is so huge that it's pretty silly to talk about them in Hall of Fame discussions.Quote:
I included so many young players because I think they will develop into potential hall of famers if all goes good.
It's clear that you have some personal bias against those two players, so I don't think your opinion on it really can be considered valid. Present an actual argument against those two players, please, because both are clearly deserving of the Hall of Fame, based on the standards the Hall has set.Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
The difference is HUGE. Hoffman's 2.73 ERA translates into a 147 ERA+. Mariano Rivera's 2.35 ERA translates itno a 194 ERA+.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulMan
This list just proves how completely biased against Mariano Rivera you are, as well as what seems like you completely overvaluing the "save" stat.Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
Gossage and Eck at their peaks are the only two players you listed with a viable argument for being better than Rivera, and Rivera sustained his performance way longer than those two. Wilhelm was better once you factor in longevity, but I wouldn't place him under the "closer" umbrella.
Derek Jeter: .317/.388/.462, 122 OPS+Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
Trammell: .285/.352/.415, 110 OPS+
Larkin: .295/.371/.444, 116 OPS+
Looks to me that Jeter was a better hitter than both of them, at power and contact. The only difference is the defense.
But one's postseason performance DOES impact his team's success and should play a role in HOF discussion. LACK of postseason appearances should NOT be held against a player, but a player's postseason success should be taken into account a little.Quote:
Originally Posted by rogue9
I don'tQuote:
Originally Posted by RedSoxRockies
no, they're not.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulMan
Agreed 100%. They all are worthy of the Hall of Fame.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulMan
Yes, can you blame me for having bias against the evil Yankees?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Besides, I think one of the qualifications of the HOF is being a good person (not really factored in much, but I'm pretty sure that it says that somewhere on the HOF website). I don't consider Rivera or Jeter good people, nor do I consider anyone who has played for the Yankees since 1996 or so (except Robin Ventura, Al Leiter, and Darryl Strawberry) to be good people.
If Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera played for the Red Sox, the Mets, the Rangers, the Cubs or any other team I would respect them. But, I'm sorry, I just can't respect their character when they play for the New York Yankees. I really hope that every HOF voter who isn't a Yankee fan purposely leaves these 2 off their ballots in the future- to show everyone that the Evil Empire and all of its evil players cannot seize our beloved Hall of Fame.
Even if Jeter makes it in, he'd probably be too busy making out with A-Rod to show up to the induction ceremony :).
No, but I would hope that you could put your bias aside in favor of intellectual debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
Nevertheless, debating you on this topic is completely useless. Clearly, you're not thinking rationally about it, as your above post exemplifies. You don't actually feel that Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera, as players, regardless of their team, are unworthy of the Hall of Fame. You just harbor some deep hatred for the Yankees and anybody that plays for them, except for players that also played for your favorite team, and because of this hatred, don't WANT them in the Hall of Fame. So, given that your opposition to their induction is based solely in hatred and has nothing to do with actual facts and information, I can't debate that.
Okay, this following statement is gonna be really confusing and might not make much sense:Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Rationally, they might be deserving of just cracking the hall of fame (not 1st year 99.9% of votes though). I just can't (even if I could I wouldn't) get over my immense hatred of those jerks in the pinstripes to rationally analyze any of their stats. I'm sorry, but that's something people will have to get used to when debating with me. I just can't help it.