I always think of Tito Landrum when you think of guys with rings that will never sniff the HOF, I think Landrumon 2...Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
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I always think of Tito Landrum when you think of guys with rings that will never sniff the HOF, I think Landrumon 2...Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
Very good production from a key defensive position for what will likely be about 15 seasons, with solid production for 2-4 more seasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
Let's see. All Star games are a horrible judge of a player, and they're only based on half a season, but let's look at each year in which Jeter made the all-star team, and see how he faired amongst his league's shortstops:Quote:
All-star games? Arrogant Yankee fans vote him in every year undeservingly.
1998: Nomar Garciaparra and Alex Rodriguez were both better than him. A-Rod was an All-Star, Garciaparra wasn't.
1999: Him and Garciaparra were both roughly equal. Both were All-Stars.
2000: A-Rod and Garciaparra were better. All 3 were All-Stars.
2001: A-Rod was better, and was an All-Star.
2002: A-Rod, Garciaparra, and Tejada were all better. All of them, AND Jeter were All-Stars. Also, Jeter's second half was significantly worse than his first half, so even though his overall numbers don't look like anything special, they were certainly All-Star worthy at the half.
2004: Carlos Guillen was better. Both were all-stars.
2006: Carlos Guillen was arguably better, but did his best work in the second half.
2007: Carlos Guillen was arguably better. Both made the All-Star team.
So, considering, every single year Jeter was one of the top 3 shortstops in his league (except for 2002 where he was 4th), and every year, he AND the better guys all made the All-Star team (except Nomar in 1998), I'd say he is surely deserving of his All-Star appearances.
He arguably should have won in 2006. MVP awards are also a poor judge of a player.Quote:
MVP Awards? Wait, he has none...
Jeter is VERY GOOD AT HITTING. You obviously aren't taking position into account. For a shortstop, there aren't many players that can match his production.Quote:
I consider him the type of player that I hate most- which I call the "sampler".
Other "samplers" include, IMO, Curtis Granderson and Jimmy Rollins.
Samplers are players who aren't very good in any one area, but are OK in many areas. Being a sampler (as Jeter is), IMO, does not warrant HOF induction.
Of players that played more than half their games at shortstop, all-time, Derek Jeter ranks 5th in OPS+ (tied with Ernie Banks, if you lower the playing time threshold just a bit) - Honus Wagner, Alex Rodriguez, Arky Vaughan, and Nomar Garciaparra are ahead of him. By the time his career is over, A-Rod likely won't qualify for that, and Garciaparra will likely be behind him.
Look, I think Jeter is overrated, especially on his defense. He's a bad defender. He isn't the second coming of Jesus. Yankee fans think he's way better than he is. But saying he's not a great player and not a surefire Hall of Famer is just as bad as the exaggeration of his ability from Yankee fans.
As dickay said, he's very likely going to reach 3,000 hits, which, like it or not, makes him a surefire Hall of Famer. He's a deserving Hall of Famer if he retires today, and he's still got at least 5 more years left.
I went to the HOF website and compared Jeter's current numbers with the career numbers of various shortstops in the HOF....based on those numbers he qualifies now for the HOF!
Not a fan of Jeter...but compare his numbers to that of Pete Rose. In 2007, Derek Jeter turned 33 years old. In 1974, Pete Rose turned 33.
Their numbers through those two seasons.
Jeter-1835 games; 7429 at-bats; 1379 runs; 2356 hits; 195 HR; 933 RBI; 264 SB; 761 BB; 1291 K; .317 BA; .388 OBP; .462 SLG
Rose-1860 games; 7559 at-bats; 1217 runs; 2337 hits; 117 HR; 701 RBI; 97 SB; 782 BB; 723 K; .309 BA; .376 OBP; .432 SLG
I'd say those two are fairly similar lines, and other than the big difference in strikeouts, I beleive Jeter has performed at a higher offensive level than Pete Rose.
I don't think Jeter will play until he's 152 years of age like Rose, so he probably won't break the hits record, but he could reach 3500 hits (only five people have done that) and score 2000 runs (only seven have done that).
Toss in his championships, which fair or not do play a part in HoF voting and that he is not only one of the most recognizable names and faces in all of baseball, he's one of the most recognizable names and faces in all of American sports.
I think a more reasonable question may end up being, Can he receive the highest percentage of votes for the Hall of Fame?
YES!!!!!! (According to biased Yankees fans like me!)
Gotta love a guy saying Jeter isn't a Hall of Famer, then following that up with a list putting Hideo Nomo (only way this guy makes it is if we're including Japanese League stats, and I don't see Sadaharu Oh getting in any time soon!), Felix Hernandez (how can anyone make ANY predictions on this guy when he's still figuring things out at the major league level???) and Dustin Pedroia and Troy Tulowitzki (Yes, let's just make massive projections for guys with ONE YEAR IN THE BIGS). :D
Jeter!!Jeter!!Jeter!!
WOW! This has got to be the most ridiculous thing ever posted! At first I stopped reading when I first saw that Jeter has never been amazing. I figured, that I'd start reading again... bad idea. I then saw that Troy Tolowitzki has a shot at the HOF. He is very overrated, except for defense. His offense is helped a LOT by Coors, as he hits .250 away from Coors, and .317 at Coors. Chipper may get in the HOF, Andruw Jones hasn't a chance, imo. Smoltz, Glavine, Johnson all will get in. Santana, may have a shot if he continues to be as good as he has in his career. Reyes is very overrated; A decent defensive SS, that is a decent hitter with god like speed. Wright may have a chance if he continues what he has done, same goes for Fielder. Sheets? Sheets? Sheet? Seriously? He hasn't a shot at his pace. Griffey is a sure HOF'er. Sizemore? Not at how he has preformed this far. Sabathia, only if he can sustain his recent success. Don't see Halladay getting in. Pedroia??? Lol, all he can do is field well, and hit for average. Manny may have a shot if he can have a couple more good years. Holliday? If he can continue his success of last year. Helton probably won't be getting in, but could have a shot. Felix Hernandez? He is currently very inconsistent, so if he can turn it around, maybe. Ichiro will get in. Nomo? Heck nah! Most of these guys are very young, so I wouldn't make assumptions yet... Also, no Yankees? If you have Pedroia up there, you must have his superior in Cano. Where is A-Rod? Jeter... already been discussed, but will be a HOF'er. Godzilla should be in there if you are going to throw in Nomo (though Matsui doesn't belong, but Nomo definitely doesn't). Where is Mo Rivera? Lol, this is just a homer list here. I don't know if you're seriously, or just playing around, but I hope the latter.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
Maybe I am missing something, but I fail to see how Mariano is the best all time closer. Or even the best current.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
The only stat I see that he beats Hoffman in is ERA, but they are both under 3. Hoffman has a better op. batting average, and far more saves. Mariano hasn't saved 40+ games in 2 years, Hoffman has saved 40+ for the last 4.
For that matter, Billy Wagner has an ERA much closer to Mariano's, and a better op. BA. Granted not as many saves though. Both Wagner and Hoffman posted better ERAs last year than Mariano.
I am not taking into account post season success, I am looking at their numbers playing the same role on their respective teams. I just don't get it, there are 2 other guys that are long time closers that have numbers close to, or arguably better than Mariano's, yet everyone touts him as the best all time. I do not subscribe to the school of thought that says being on a yankee team makes you best at your position, maybe thats what I am missing.
My list is not complete because I had to go and I did not feel like adding hundreds of others who may stand a chance. These are not definates, just players who if play as expected may make it in and players who everyone knows will make it in. As for Nomo, though not the first Japanese player, he is a pioneer that led to teams signing more and more asians. Look at Jackie Robinson. Though he was a great player, he did not put up hall of fame #'s, but got voted in because of his role as a pioneer. The same can be said for monte irvin and Larry doby. So while based on numbers, Nomo does not stand a chance, he is a pioneer. As for Troy Tulo, He is NOT overrrated. He is young and, as long as he stays healthy should play untill he is around 39-40. If he plays at least at his level in 2007 he will have a good chance, let alone the fact that he is young and likely will get better. Like I said I did not finish the list, nor even come close. A0Rod will make it in if he retires now, Hoffman and Rivera are going in, if Cano stays strong he will definately be considered. I included so many young players because I think they will develop into potential hall of famers if all goes good. I think Andruw Jones will make it only because he styarted young and should, if he can return to previous strength, will likely hit 500 homers. Others I did not add that I think will make it in or may have a chance later on are: Omar Vizquel, Kenny Lofton, Curt Schilling, Frank Thomas, jim Thome, Papelbon if he stays a closer for 15-20 years and stays this good, Maddux of course, Miguel Cabrera, Jake Peavy and so on,(there is plenty more so dont attack me for leaving them off.) As for Sheets, only if he can stay healthy and pitch his best for a while. I like the stuff he has. Sabatia, now that I think about, he will not get in unles he repeats. Beckett may though. And Sizemore, in case you have not noticed kool, but he is predicted by many to become a 30homer, 30steal, high average knid of guy. If he becomes as good as they're saying, he is gunna be in. And Arctic, Felix started young and could become amazing. I am not saying these guys will make it in, but potentially they coul.
I dunno who I hate more:
People who say Derek Jeter is a Hall of Famer or
People who say Mariano Rivera is a hall of famer
Both in no way deserve HOF induction (unless being arrogant jerks who win all the time makes you more qualified for the HOF), but both have a 99.999% chance of getting in because of sportswriters who have no idea what the helll they are talking about who vote for people with shiny awards and a lot of HRs, wins, or saves(the only stats that 99 percent of sportswriters give a dammn about)and leave off big stars(Someone did vote for Todd Stottlemyre last year).
That difference is pretty significant, though. Especially when you take into account that Mariano has pitched in a DH league in a park that favors hitters more than Hoffman's park. And not that I condone it, but if we were to throw out Mo's 50 IP as a starter, his ERA would drop even further.Quote:
Originally Posted by rogue9
As for the Opp. BA argument, yes, Hoffman beats Rivera, .209 to .216, but Mariano has a significantly lower Opp. OPS - .565 to Hoffman's .602. You know why that is? Because Hoffman gives up a lot more homers. What's more important for a closer - being able to keep batters from reaching base, or to prevent those that do reach base from scoring? Sure, Mariano gives a up a few more hits here and there, but those runners end up being left on base.
Wagner has a solid case for being just as good as the other two, but he doesn't have Hoffman's save numbers or Mariano's mystique, so he doesn't ever really get the credit he deserves.Quote:
Originally Posted by rogue9
And another thing...why aren't you taking into account postseason success? I mean, Mariano's got another 1.5 season's worth of HOF-caliber pitching against the best teams of each season. Now granted, Hoffman hasn't had the type of postseason opportunities that Mariano has, but in his 13 playoff innings he's been solid...not quite impressive.Quote:
Originally Posted by rogue9
And I'm not trying to say that Mariano's absolutely the best that ever was, or even that he's significantly better than either Hoffman or Wagner, but it's harder to make an argument for Hoffman than it is to make one for Mo. A .007 difference in Opp. BA isn't enough. Wagner is closer to being even with Mo, but Rivera's got a 182-inning advantage on Wags, so we'll have to see how the rest of their respective careers go.
Are you serious?Quote:
Originally Posted by yankee hater
I can name 10 closers better than him:
1. Lee Smith
2. Trevor Hoffman
3. Dennis Eckersley
4. Goose Gossage
5.Bruce Sutter
6.Hoyt Wilhelm (was he a closer or just a relief pitcher?)
7. Billy Wagner
8. John Franco
9. Rollie Fingers
10. Robb Nen (retired while still in his prime)
Just curious, do you think Barry Larkin and Alan Trammell are deserving of the Hall of Fame?Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234