probing whether Clemens lied to Congress

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Originally Posted by Wassit3

I think they both, if we are going to have it be illegal, go to jail however I still think that unless you make it very not worthwhile for users and dealers you will always have some drug use. You might still regardless of what you do, there are too many millions to be made for some to not be tempted.

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You will always have drug use. There is no way to get rid of drugs. Personally, I believe drugs should be legalized. As it stands, if Congress wants to "help the children", though, imprisoning Roger Clemens by giving his dealer a deal to give him up does horseshit. If Congress really wanted to "save the kids" from the perils of steroids, which is the nonsense they spew to justify these hearings, than they should actually do something to help prevent steroids from getting into schools, and to actually educate kids on steroids as well. Throwing some rich guy that did it into jail does nothing at all.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

You will always have drug use. There is no way to get rid of drugs. Personally, I believe drugs should be legalized. As it stands, if Congress wants to "help the children", though, imprisoning Roger Clemens by giving his dealer a deal to give him up does horseshit. If Congress really wanted to "save the kids" from the perils of steroids, which is the nonsense they spew to justify these hearings, than they should actually do something to help prevent steroids from getting into schools, and to actually educate kids on steroids as well. Throwing some rich guy that did it into jail does nothing at all.

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by drugs I am talking about PEDs to be clear, otherskinds of drugs are a different matter as far as I am concerned...

Well, if we're limiting the discussion to PED's, then they shouldn't be in the criminal code at all. PED use isn't even in the same class as drugs such as cocaine and heroine.

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Originally Posted by ohms_law

Well, if we're limiting the discussion to PED's, then they shouldn't be in the criminal code at all. PED use isn't even in the same class as drugs such as cocaine and heroine.

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I was wondering why you bothered with this debate lol (you tend to avoid out of boredom roid debates lately it seems is what I mean by that)

I don't think PED's should be illegal either. I think that sports should ban them, but I don't think they should be illegal under the law.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

I don't think PED's should be illegal either. I think that sports should ban them, but I don't think they should be illegal under the law.

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so they would only against the rules for players but if joe blow wants to look buff and wants to use roids for that purpose then its his perrogative? I could go along with that so long as joe blows family can not turn around and sue the roid makers years later because joe died early from roid use...

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Originally Posted by Wassit3

so they would only against the rules for players but if joe blow wants to look buff and wants to use roids for that purpose then its his perrogative?

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Right. PEDs consitute cheating, and cheating shouldn't be allowed in sports. However, I think people should be allowed to do whatever they want with their own bodies.

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I could go along with that so long as joe blows family can not turn around and sue the roid makers years later because joe died early from roid use...

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Obviously not. People can't sue tobacco companies if their family member dies of lung cancer. (Well, I guess they can but it'd be ridiculous if soemone won such a case.)

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Originally Posted by Wassit3

I was wondering why you bothered with this debate lol (you tend to avoid out of boredom roid debates lately it seems is what I mean by that)

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Basically, yea.
:)

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Right. PEDs consitute cheating, and cheating shouldn't be allowed in sports. However, I think people should be allowed to do whatever they want with their own bodies.


Obviously not. People can't sue tobacco companies if their family member dies of lung cancer. (Well, I guess they can but it'd be ridiculous if soemone won such a case.)

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that's pretty much been the basis of every (successful, I might add) lawsuit against Big Tobacco for the past 15 years...

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Originally Posted by Arctic Blast

that's pretty much been the basis of every (successful, I might add) lawsuit against Big Tobacco for the past 15 years...

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Well, than that just demonstrates how sad our sue-happy country can be.

Well - to be fair, there are other factors that contribute to lawsuits, such as Big Tobacco aiming their advertising and marketing exclusively to kids. And a lot of good has come out of the lawsuits - changes in advertising policy, warning labels (not that they do any good, see Dennis Leary), and most imporantly money contributed to hospitals that have to care for smoking-related cancer patients (including second-hand smoke cancer patients). If no one ever sued them, they may just be making billions scott-free...and they might have even more lobbying power, to make 'non-smoking' establishments unconstitutional. :) Let's not forget decades of advertising, including using doctors in the commercials - including decades of denying any negative medical consequences. It's the same as people denying global warming now...

Anyway - on the whole drug thing, I say legalize it as well. Tax it, regulate it, but legalize it - get it under control and have it added to the GDP, rather than to overseas drug lord's accounts. Of course any professional athlete should keep himself clean of any prohibited substances, and be tested accordingly.

And to weigh in specifically on Clemens, yes it is a big issue, but not something the government needs to be involved in. We're approaching recession, we have a misnamed 'Patriot act' and tax cuts to examine (and hopefully not renew) and an administration that is out of control and cannot be held accountable. The fact that a panel of our elected representatives choose to take their time examining what went in or came out of Roger Clemen's butt-cheeks is a strong reason for their removal in the next election.

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Originally Posted by Alloutwar

Well - to be fair, there are other factors that contribute to lawsuits, such as Big Tobacco aiming their advertising and marketing exclusively to kids. And a lot of good has come out of the lawsuits - changes in advertising policy, warning labels (not that they do any good, see Dennis Leary), and most imporantly money contributed to hospitals that have to care for smoking-related cancer patients (including second-hand smoke cancer patients). If no one ever sued them, they may just be making billions scott-free...and they might have even more lobbying power, to make 'non-smoking' establishments unconstitutional. :) Let's not forget decades of advertising, including using doctors in the commercials - including decades of denying any negative medical consequences. It's the same as people denying global warming now...

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Well, yeah, when companies don't warn people of the risks and what not, than that is grounds for a suit. However, nowadays, with all the warnings and information out there, the companies should not be held accountable for a smoker getting lung cancer.

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Originally Posted by yankee hater

PED's can give unfair advantage outside of sports too. Several jobs require manual labor and they definitely help with that. Looking better can help you in all walks of life, too. It's not as simplistic as you would like to make others believe.

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Except manual labor isn't a contest meant to be played on an even playing field in order to provide entertainment to society.

If John Lumberjack wants to use steroids in order to chop down trees better, why is that a problem?


Furthermore, companies would still have the right to make it against their rules for their employees to use whatever drugs they say are against the rules.

Some pretty good arguments on both sides here. This has also turned into a battle of political ideology.

I understand the arguments to make drugs legal. Its their body, and a valid argument can be made to let them do as they please with it as long as it doesn't effect society. The flaw I have with this, is that it always effects society. Study's are readily available from other countries experiences that crime increases when drugs are legalized. Now they may not be specific to PED's, but legalizing drug use in general increases crime. As much as our govt. gets involved in things they shouldn't, reducing crime is always something they should be involved in.

Drug abuse also is a HUGE burden on our economy. The profit gained by legalizing and taxing is minimal compared to the loss of profit from poor production, missed time at work, and a huge increase in workplace injuries or compensation fraud. Drug users are far more likely to get hurt (legitimately or fraudlently) and spend far more time on the workers compensation system. Drug abuse also is a HUGE problem on our roadways which are already very unsafe. You see the effects of alcohol (over 20,000 fatalities on the road per year) and driving.....making other drugs legal will only worsen it.

As far as congress and the steroid issue. Although I initially was for the hearings with Clemens & McNamee I am almost embarrassed to admit it. Just a circus and Congress had no point other than to get some publicity and their names in the papers.

There is an epidemic in our schools and with young athletes and the use of PED's. Congress should be investigating how to address it. There are some areas of the country now where drug testing has become common for high school athletes. Although this is a deterent, its a huge tax burden and at least in my opinion it is sad that children must go through this. Tackling the problem at the top, with professional athletes I believe in time WILL reduce the usage. I feel anyone the Mitchell report found to be using and have sufficient evidence should be prosecuted. Then maybe we will get real answers as to how many are using, and where they are coming from. Then maybe we can arrest the suppliers.

Until the athletes are prosecuted however and pressured to talk, the true reach of this problem in professional baseball can only be speculated.