Mitchell report due today

Here's another interesting perspective re: HGH, from Jayson Stark's chat:

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Steve (DC): How is using a Cortisone shot to return from injury different than using HGH?

Jayson Stark: (12:19 PM ET ) That's another great issue. The simple difference is that cortisone is legal (a legal steroid, actually) and HGH is illegal if improperly prescribed. But what you find if you dig through the accounts for context is that clearly, players came to believe that HGH was a miracle healing drug that helped them recover from injuries faster. So a lot of them sought it out for the same reasons players ask for a cortisone shot -- so they can get back and play when they ordinarily couldn't. If a guy takes a cortisone shot to play in a postseason game, he's a hero. But if a guy uses HGH so he can get off the DL in time to play in the playoffs, he's a "cheater." It's a fine line, isn't it?

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And re: court cases:

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Kevin (Houston, TX): What type of evidence do you think would be significant proof? We all know that people aren't going to get caught on tape (at least not enough to matter). The only thing we can hope for is multiple sources claiming a certain player used. That is the best we can get.

Jayson Stark: (12:25 PM ET ) That's right. But we don't have multiple sources for most of these players. We mostly have one source -- and it's generally one of two guys who are talking to save their own butts. A lawyer told me yesterday that a judge would instruct a jury that the testimony of a witness who made a deal with the government is not sufficient for a conviction. There needs to be corroborating evidence. And it's lacking in many, many instances in this report.

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Here's another interesting perspective re: HGH, from Jayson Stark's chat:

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Stark KNOWS very little about HGH & its effects.He is advocating only 1 possible usage,whereas it has multiple usages from recovery of injury to muscle growth to muscle development(which is not neccesarily the same as muscle growth) to the development of nuclei to actual retardation of the aging process.The REAL advantage of HGH is that it is undetectable in urine samples & therefore in untraceable under MLB testing procedure.

In other sports,such as WADA administereded events like the Tour de France or Athletics blood samples are used & HGH is "supposedly traceable" eg Vinoukov had 2 distinct blood types,although obviously compatible.


If it was used as in the Stark examples firstly it would be have been prescribed by a doctor & a professional M.D. would have known that it was banned for a professional athlete & secondly a sensible/responsable player would not use a "banned" product when an alternative product could have been used without risk.


All the above is just my Humble opinion but it is funny that HGH first came into the system in Body building just as did steroids previously & not for recuperation usage.;)

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Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX

Stark KNOWS very little about HGH & its effects.He is advocating only 1 possible usage,whereas it has multiple usages from recovery of injury to muscle growth to muscle development(which is not neccesarily the same as muscle growth) to the development of nuclei to actual retardation of the aging process.

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He isn't advocating any sort of usage, or saying anything about what he knows about the substance. He's saying what players thought. "But what you find if you dig through the accounts for context is that clearly, players came to believe that HGH was a miracle healing drug that helped them recover from injuries faster." The PLAYERS believed it to be that.

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If it was used as in the Stark examples firstly it would be have been prescribed by a doctor & a professional M.D. would have known that it was banned for a professional athlete & secondly a sensible/responsable player would not use a "banned" product when an alternative product could have been used without risk.

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This exact thing came up later in Stark's chat.

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Chris (NY, NY): The problem I have with some guy's using the injury excuse for HGH is the soruces they got it from. If they had a liscensed doctor rpescirbe something that the doc said would make them heal faster then that's one story. But if you were really concerned about your health would you really be buying your medicine from gym rats or clubhouse attendants? Can't a reasnoable person distunguish the difference?

Jayson Stark: That's true, too. Let's take the Rick Ankiel case. Here's a guy who you want to believe. He wasn't even suspended by the commissioner's office after he met with them. He clearly believed what a lot of players believed -- that he could heal faster if he used HGH. But let's think about this another way. When you were 21, did you ever hang around an anti-aging clinic? When you pick up a prescription, do you ever pick it up at an anti-aging clinic? If you're getting your prescriptions through a place like that, you can't possibly believe that what you're doing is totally on the up and up, can you? But remember the context. That was the culture. Lots of guys did it. So where do we start hammering them and where do we start sympathizing? There are lots of levels to this story.

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It is pretty funny. People complain that McGwire hit 70 homeruns when he was using Andro. My question is how many could he hit without? He hit 49 in his rookie season, in an age that there were no 50 homerun men.

I think that Jose Cansasco book did more damage then this report will ever do.

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Originally Posted by boomboom

It is pretty funny. People complain that McGwire hit 70 homeruns when he was using Andro. My question is how many could he hit without? He hit 49 in his rookie season, in an age that there were no 50 homerun men.

I think that Jose Cansasco book did more damage then this report will ever do.

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healthy and everything going right he probably could hae hit 70 anyway, it would be within historical norms, for a player, remember maris never cracked 40 when he hit 61, a 22 homer increase....

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Originally Posted by boomboom

It is pretty funny. People complain that McGwire hit 70 homeruns when he was using Andro. My question is how many could he hit without? He hit 49 in his rookie season, in an age that there were no 50 homerun men.

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Nevermind the fact that andro was a perfectly legal substance until April of 2004 when the FDA banned the sale of it.

For anyone interested Shysterball is running a piece-by-piece breakdown of the Mitchell Report. 4 parts are up, and he's barely a third into the report.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Huh?

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Some time ago you had a nearly allergic reaction when I stated that Donnelley was a steroid user. Well, I still can't remember where I got that information then, but, well, I'm not calling you ill informed but......

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Originally Posted by robinhoodnik

Some time ago you had a nearly allergic reaction when I stated that Donnelley was a steroid user. Well, I still can't remember where I got that information then, but, well, I'm not calling you ill informed but......

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I'll search the forum for that when I get home later and see if we can put some context to it or what not.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Nevermind the fact that andro was a perfectly legal substance until April of 2004 when the FDA banned the sale of it.

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The problem is Androstenedione is a steroid,although as stated a legal one at the time of McGwire's HR season,but also & this is where the problem lies,is it could have been a "masking agent".Like Drug dealers used Coffee beans to mask cocaine shipments from DEA dogs,Andro in the '90's could/was used to mask other products.

McGwire was also a known associate of steriod dealer Curtis Wenzlaff who was "busted" in MAY 1992 (or 6 years before his andro jar incident)

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

I'll search the forum for that when I get home later and see if we can put some context to it or what not.

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You do that.

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Originally Posted by robinhoodnik

Some time ago you had a nearly allergic reaction when I stated that Donnelley was a steroid user. Well, I still can't remember where I got that information then, but, well, I'm not calling you ill informed but......

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http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthr...997#post844997

One thing that was brought up that I found interesting was Mitchell's statement during the presser that they had uncovered numerous examples of players being warned beforehand of their impending 'random' drug test. I mean, it's something that has long been suspected of happening in every sport for a long time, but finally there appears to be some proof of it occurring.

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Originally Posted by SirKodiak

http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthr...997#post844997

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Thanks. :)

Robin, you said that Donnelly got caught using steroids. At the time, I searched, and found no mention of him being caught, which is why I said that I found no such evidence, and asked you if you could provide me with any. And, you said that you couldn't find any, and don't know where you got the impression that he got caught.

I don't see how I had an "allergic reaction." I just said that I found no evidence to your claim, and, you couldn't provide any either. It is certainly interesting though that you had somewhere heard this, and despite not remembering where, it turns out to likely be true.

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Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX

The problem is Androstenedione is a steroid,although as stated a legal one at the time of McGwire's HR season,but also & this is where the problem lies,is it could have been a "masking agent".Like Drug dealers used Coffee beans to mask cocaine shipments from DEA dogs,Andro in the '90's could/was used to mask other products.

McGwire was also a known associate of steriod dealer Curtis Wenzlaff who was "busted" in MAY 1992 (or 6 years before his andro jar incident)

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None of that matters. All we know about McGwire was that he had andro in his locker. That's it. Saying that he used it as a masking agent, or that he had associated with a steroid dealer and then further saying that because of that he did steroids...it's all assumptions. And I'm sorry, but I don't believe in punishing people based on assumptions.

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None of that matters. All we know about McGwire was that he had andro in his locker. That's it. Saying that he used it as a masking agent, or that he had associated with a steroid dealer and then further saying that because of that he did steroids...it's all assumptions. And I'm sorry, but I don't believe in punishing people based on assumptions.

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That's a joke right ?? You also conveniantly forget the "biggie" ---- his answers or should I say non-answers,under oath,to the congressional hearing !

LOL,under the circumstances,of how MLB drug testing is done (or to be precise not done) his actual association with dealers,users,his usage of a STEROID (as andro is one),testimony (although not under oath) by various sources means these are not assumptions but facts.Just because he has not been indited (but how many actual known users have ?) does not mean he did not use other steroids.....

Again remember,Andro is a steroid,a legal steroid at the time but still a steroid & post dated banned by the FDA & MLB.Just because X or Y is not listed at the time (ie 1990 ACT) does not mean it is not a banned substance--- TGH,EPO or HGH in 1990 were non listed & have been banned since because either 1) they were non commercially existant or 2) actually were non traceable or even known about - heck "cream" & "clear" were invented after 1990 & still aren't "officially" steroids as they have never been sold on the market or even been prescribed by M.D's.

Re-Read the link,first line:

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Androstenedione (also known as 4-androstenedione) is a 19-carbon steroid hormone

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Ipso facto,McGwire did steroids!

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Thanks. :)


I don't see how I had an "allergic reaction."

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I'm not accusing you of lying, but can you show me where he was caught using 'roids?

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Maybe it's that little "I'm not accusing you of lying, but...." bit?

I hope that the three of you realize that you're driving people away (at least from participating) with this garbage.

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Originally Posted by ohms_law

I hope that the three of you realize that you're driving people away (at least from participating) with this garbage.

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What are you talking about?

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Originally Posted by boomboom

What are you talking about?

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An unpleasantly personal tone seems to be seeping into the debate.

Well we are talking about steroids in baseball and that always seems to go this route.

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Originally Posted by RickD

Well we are talking about steroids in baseball and that always seems to go this route.

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I regard steroid-taking as akin to Popeye knocking off a can of spinach, ere he beats up on Bluto:cool:

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Originally Posted by robinhoodnik

Maybe it's that little "I'm not accusing you of lying, but...." bit?

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That was just to make sure you didn't think I was calling you a liar, because I wasnt..

FRENCHREDSOX, sorry I didn't specify. I just thought it was quite clear that when I said "steroids" I was talking about illegal steroids that are against the rules.

Every player has done "steroids" because there are tons of legal steroids that all ballplayers take at one point or another, like cortisone, but I just figured that while we're discussing this topic, saying that a player did steroids is referring to a player taking steroids that are against the law/rules.

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Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX

Just because he has not been indited (but how many actual known users have ?) does not mean he did not use other steroids.....

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And just because he knows a steroid dealer, and because he refused to answer questions about the past, does not mean he did illegal steroids. We don't know what he used. All we KNOW is that he used a legal substance that was not against the rules.

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Originally Posted by ohms_law

I hope that the three of you realize that you're driving people away (at least from participating) with this garbage.

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We're driving people away? LMAO! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

That was just to make sure you didn't think I was calling you a liar, because I wasnt..

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In the future then, when someone makes a statement, worded in that manner, it does mean you're calling someone something.

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Originally Posted by RickD

Well we are talking about steroids in baseball and that always seems to go this route.

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I can't wait for Roger to go in wearing #22.:p I hope the Sox give his #21 away to some bench jockey next season.

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Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX

This is just my personal opinion

Baseball (ie MLB) loved drugs in the late '80's/'90's - the sport was ill,financially at least, & embraced the Sosa/Bonds/McGwire's as helping get Americans (& the world) fall back in love.

As other drug tainted sports (Cycling & Weightlifting come to mind) there has been a shift in ideology - this is not due to getting the sport clean but pure & simple economics.

Let's simply look at the supposed effects* of steroids:

1) increased power &
2) quicker & better recovery from injuries.

So basically a .250 & 15 HR guy turns into a .252 & 30 HR guy & players play 150 games instead of 130.What does that mean ? Not much except when FA is thrown in....under FA the .250/15 guy would command 1/2 million at the time,whereas the latter would demand 5x or even 10x that figure because he played more & produced more.THE OWNERS just don't want to PAY now,simple as that,10x market value for a "false" production.


Secondly,as steroids allowed players quicker & better recovery players played PAST their supposed retirement ( ie fall off) age & re-entered FA for a 2nd or 3rd time (you can put Bonds/Clemens in this category).

However,as FA prices increased for average players SUDDENLY the MLB (ie the owners) decided to pull the "plug" on the miracle of power increase & longetivity by banning Steroids & HGH (under pressure from Congress & WADA) but by NOT testing for them basically "turned a blind eye".Yet,the problem would not go away,as the public demanded a "clean game" (helped by sports writers' ofcourse,smelling a good story!) & the external authorities too.

Testing came in but the MLB STILL TODAY does not test HGH nor uses blood samples for Steroid tracing (unlike Cycling or the Olympics) --- heck Bonds is on record (BALCO trial) to have used every possible "aid" (including a Female HGH & a "Horse" steroid plus the famous clear & cream steroid) yet never been found guilty by the MLB testing of steroids,when he admidted using the BALCO products to the media as testing was being done!

The Mitchell report in itself is a self fulfilling prophecy - as it was intended to show what was already known,that steroids were used - yet will be totally inaccurate & useless.Why ?

1) because it was done "after the horse had bolted" -- ie like any investigation if the "cheaters" & "dealers" KNOW you are coming they will simply shift their production/usage elsewhere or use a new "product" which is untestable - just go onto any I-net pharmacy site or bodybuilding forum & you can easily find untraceable wonder products ;);
2) because Mitchell was not allowed to interview today's players' (thanks again the Union !) & thus was forced to interview past players' & thus cannot "judge" today's game.**
3) He did the investigation without the aid of the Anti doping authorities (WADA nor even USADA)

This is for show!

* Supposed in the sense that there has never been a case study of the usage of steroids on baseball players & can only be shown relative to real studies on body builders & Weighlifters.However,even if there was simply a "placebo" effect then the effects would still be positive.

** unlike Baseball,Cycling has taken PED's seriously,investigating daily---- using Blood sampling,off season samples & even Full season log (ie you have to be able to account for your whereabouts during the 10 month cycling season even if NOT competing & provide coroborative evidence.).

Also countries of the EU have adopted the 2002 Steroids Act & "raid" events whilst they occur to find evidence (yearly raids on the Tour de France & Giro d'Italy have lead to multiple arrests & cases such as 1999 Festina case or the banning just last year of Vinokorov & Rassmussen in the Tour).Weightlifting & Athletics have also started (since Athens 2004) used blood sampling & WADA guidelines leading to bans on Marion Jones,Gaitlin etc etc...

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Still stand by what I said above,in post #2.....plus kick in some politicking as well....

Somebody else thinking the same thing I'm thinkinghttp://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotr...about-the.html

I wholeheartedly agree. I think it's nothing short of hypocrisy to name players, but not name executives and managers/coaches/trainers, etc. who it's known had at least some knowledge of the steroid issue.

Yep,. Multiple times in the report, it tries to come off like it's giving blame all around, but really, it's mostly laying the blame on players.

It really makes me wonder if whole Red Sox organization has the same cheating principles that Theo Epstein has! A GM with knowledge from his own sources doesn't even notify MLB about it, get real! And then to go ahead and sign that player.

Even though I'm a Cubs fan I was happy that Boston got a championship finally but after this I wish they had never gotten one much less 2. And there's no need for Boston fans to even try to defend Theo, they should call for his resignation. A cheater thats willing to hire more cheats to win.

The problem is that it's the system itself that everyone in baseball is working in that is corrupt. It's really impossible to be the "good guy" in a corrupt system, and to be successful. So, everyone that's at the major league level right now is basically corrupt simply by virtue of being there.

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Originally Posted by Reade

It really makes me wonder if whole Red Sox organization has the same cheating principles that Theo Epstein has! A GM with knowledge from his own sources doesn't even notify MLB about it, get real! And then to go ahead and sign that player.

Even though I'm a Cubs fan I was happy that Boston got a championship finally but after this I wish they had never gotten one much less 2. And there's no need for Boston fans to even try to defend Theo, they should call for his resignation. A cheater thats willing to hire more cheats to win.

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I think they should hang a help wanted sign in the window based on his free agent signings alone.

Here's what I was afraid of, congressman all over the country are now getting involved.http://chicagosports.chicagotribune....home-headlines

They really do need to get rid of the monopoly exemption for baseball... no other sport has it, and not only do they do fine but they also don't have congress breathing down their throats.

Interesting video from Will Carroll:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=705

:eek: Good lord...I thought he was just kidding about having an egg shaped head!

He put up an article today, http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...articleid=7003. I like the introduction:

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Bud Selig is right. The drug testing program in Major League Baseball is second to none. I'll include not only the other major American professional sports, but all sports. Pro or amateur, US or foreign, MLB has it right.

What MLB doesn't have right is the public relations angle. It came too late to the party--far too late--and has gotten knocked around for the puritanical sin of making us believe. The cardinal sin in modern America is truly Baum's rule: never let us see behind the curtain. While the NFL talks about undersized 300 pounders and men the size of Frank Thomas playing quarterback, no one's questioning the lack of a prominent drug suspension since the rug-swept Winstrol-fed Pro Bowl season of Shawne Merriman.

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Emphasis mine.

The whole article is a good read.

I've always agreed completely...the NFL is drowning in performance enhancement. And the whole Merriman situation absolutely sickened me last year, as every announcer and commentator treated him like some conquering hero returning to the fold. Blech!

By the way, here's some evidence that the testing, at least in minor league baseball, is working:

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Minor League Test Results
Year  Tests    Pos    Pct
2001    4850    439    9.1%
2002    4719    227    4.8%
2003    4772    173    3.6%
2004    4801      78    1.6%
2005    5961    106    1.8%
2006    6433      23    0.4%

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