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Nearly half of those players named are former all-stars.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
On another note, after listening to Selig, i just loathe him more. When asked about Mitchell saying Selig is at least partially responsible, his response was nearly identical to McGwire's. "what happened in the past...blah blah blah...I want to look to the future...blah blah blah", and then says he will at least consider punishing some of the players (on a case by case basis) who were named...:mad:
I count around 30 of 90. But, being a "former All Star" does not mean you were a great player. Paul Byrd is a "Former All Star" - he made the All Star Team in 1999.Quote:
Originally Posted by scooterbracy
Of the named players, I see the following who can be called star players - McGwire, Canseco, Bonds, Palmeiro, Sheffield, Sosa, Gonzalez, Tejada, Giambi, Clemens, Pettite, Knoblauch, Vaughn, Brown, Gagne, Glaus.
And these named players are FAR from the only players who have taken steroids. Look at the list of positive tests and suspensions. A lot of guys have me saying 'Who?'
What do you want him to do? If they can't prove they did steroids, they can't do anything. A lot of the evidence is hearsay. How can you punish Brian Roberts because Larry Bigbie said he thinks Roberts said he tried steroids a couple times?Quote:
On another note, after listening to Selig, i just loathe him more. When asked about Mitchell saying Selig is at least partially responsible, his response was nearly identical to McGwire's. "what happened in the past...blah blah blah...I want to look to the future...blah blah blah", and then says he will at least consider punishing some of the players (on a case by case basis) who were named...:mad:
Selig and Mitchell are right. They have to look at the future. What happened in the past happened. Everyone involved is at fault. The MLB allowed it to happen. They played a huge role in facilitating it. For the MLB to go back and suspend players who once maybe did steroids is hypocritical and wrong. Steroid use was extremely widespread, and the players named in the Mitchell report does not even scratch the surface of the players who have taken some performance-enhancing drug.
All they can do now is try to get the drugs out of the sport, and prevent players from doing it in the future. Players that are caught should be punished. Players that are implicated by hearsay should not. Unless there is proof of use at a time where a drug policy was in place, you can't punish the person.
How can you at all say that Selig saying he will consider punishing players on a case-by-case basis is wrong? How is that wrong? Each case IS different and MUST be treated differently. You can't just blanketly punish the players named, because they were all named based on very differing amounts of evidence. Each case is different and should be treated as such.
a quick list from yahoo:
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slu...yhoo&type=lgns
i'm not saying the players names were "great"...just from the list you provided a few posts earlier (not saying that is all-inclusive), a large number of them were all-stars. again, not saying they were great, but far from "suck" as well.
I don't want him (selig) or MLB to punish those players...my beef, which i didn't properly express, is that in my opinion he's talking out of both sides of his mouth..."well, whether i knew of anything back in the day doesn't really matter...players who cheated back in the day should be punished." I just don't care for the we'll blame them for the past, but don't blame me thing he is doing.
i agree with you...looking to the future appears to be the wisest choice of action, but when selig says he wants to look at each case individually and possibly punish players, it doesn't appear that he really wants to look forward.
A third of them, at one point, made an All Star team, and another third of them played relatively little in the majors. It's a mix of players, but most of them are not stars.Quote:
Originally Posted by scooterbracy
Furthermore, a lot of the one-time All Stars were likely helped by their steroid use. Players with semi-respectable careers may have only had those careers due to steroids. That's my point. The people that use them are the people that stand to gain the most - the bad players that can become below-average major leaguers...not the stars.
Selig always talks out of his ***. He wants to save face because he knows he played a large role in the widespread use of steroids.Quote:
I don't want him (selig) or MLB to punish those players...my beef, which i didn't properly express, is that in my opinion he's talking out of both sides of his mouth..."well, whether i knew of anything back in the day doesn't really matter...players who cheated back in the day should be punished." I just don't care for the we'll blame them for the past, but don't blame me thing he is doing.
i agree with you...looking to the future appears to be the wisest choice of action, but when selig says he wants to look at each case individually and possibly punish players, it doesn't appear that he really wants to look forward.
....Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogul2000
Alex Sanchez (first player suspended for a positive test) - he of the 18 home runs in 4500 minor and major league at bats.
Randy Velarde
Manny Alexander
Marvin Benard
Chad Allen
Nook Logan
Gary Bennett
F.P. Santangelo
Those power hitters were power hitters before they took steroids as well. Hitting a lot of home runs is NOT a reason to suspect steroid use. You CANNOT just look at a player's home runs and say "STEROID USER!" Steroids do not magically make you a power hitter. They're not going to turn a 10-homer guy into a 40-homer guy.
Power-hitting is NOT AT ALL a reason to suspect steroid use. Otherwise, we have literally thousands of suspected steroid users throughout history.
"Later that summer, Clemens asked McNamee to inject him with Winstrol, which Clemens supplied. McNamee knew the substance was Winstrol because the vials Clemens gave him were so labeled. McNamee injected Clemens approximately four times in the buttocks over a several-week period with needles that Clemens provided. Each incident took place in Clemens's apartment at the SkyDome. McNamee never asked Clemens where he obtained the steroids."
Thanks for that graphic explanation ! ;)
• Ken Caminiti - Steroids
• Barry Bonds - Steroids
• Bobby Estalella - Steroids and hGH
• Jason Giambi - Steroids and hGH
• Jeremy Giambi - Steroids
• Armando Rios - Steroids and hGH
• Benito Santiago - Steroids and hGH
• Gary Sheffield - Steroids
• Jose Canseco - Steroids and hGH
• Tom House - Steroids
• Wally Joyner - Steroids
• Paxton Crawford - Steroids and hGH
• Jason Grimsley - Steroids and hGH
• Jim Leyritz - hGH
• David Segui - hGH
• John Rocker - hGH
• Paul Byrd - hGH
Mark McGwire - Steroids
• Manny Alexander - Steroids
• Chuck Finley - Steroids
• Marvin Bernard - Steroids and hGH
• Randy Velarde - Steroids
• Wilson Alvarez - Steroids and hGH
• Bret Boone - Steroids
• Ozzie Canseco - Steroids
• Juan Gonzalez - Steroids and hGH
• Dave Martinez - Steroids
• Ivan Rodriguez - Steroids and hGH
• Tony Saunders - Steroids and hGH
• Miguel Tejada - Steroids
• Lenny Dykstra - Steroids and hGH
• Dave Hollins - Steroids
• Roger Clemens - "PE Drugs"
• Andy Pettitte - "PE Drugs"
• Brian Roberts - Steroids
• Jay Gibbons - Steroids
• Gary Matthews Jr. - hGH
• Jerry Hairston Jr. - hGH
• David Bell - hCG
• Darren Holmes - Steroids and hGH
• Rick Ankiel - hGH
• Troy Glaus - Steroids
• Scott Schoeneweis - Steroids
• Matt Williams - Steroids and HGH
• Jose Guillen - Steroids and HGH
• Ismael Valdez - Steroids
What is "PE Drugs"? And where did you get that list from?
Ivan Rodriguez was not in the Mitchell Report, and neither were a few of those other names you listed.
This list was taken from ESPN form several hours ago.
Well with Selig along with Mitchell have effectively killed baseball's growth. No one will want to watch these players now that they have even been suspected as having taken steroids or HGH. Good going Selig you stupid *******!
I think that the drug problem is bad, but they will never be able to find and stop all of them. They just said on ESPn that there will be new drugs and new ways to find and detect them and people will use them until they are banned like they did in 2003-5. By the way what happened to congress' investigation of WWE and pro wrestling and MMA organizations for the same thing? That is already on they way out so will it spell the same for baseball?
Names in the Mitchell report
By Yahoo! Sports Staff
December 13, 2007
Major League Baseball players with links to performance-enhancing substances named in the Mitchell report.
View the report (PDF)
NEW NAMES
Chad Allen
Mike Bell
Gary Bennett
Larry Bigbie
Kevin Brown
Alex Cabrera
Mark Carreon
Jason Christiansen
Howie Clark
Roger Clemens
Jack Cust
Brendan Donnelly
Chris Donnels
Matt Franco
Eric Gagne
Matt Herges
Phil Hiatt
Glenallen Hill
Todd Hundley
Mike Judd
David Justice
Chuck Knoblauch
Tim Laker
Mike Lansing
Paul Lo Duca
Nook Logan
Josias Manzanillo
Cody McKay
Kent Mercker
Bart Miadich
Hal Morris
Daniel Naulty
Denny Neagle
Jim Parque
Luis Perez
Andy Pettitte
Adam Piatt
Todd Pratt
Stephen Randolph
Adam Riggs
Armando Rios
Brian Roberts
F.P. Santangelo
Mike Stanton
Ricky Stone
Miguel Tejada
Ismael Valdez
Mo Vaughn
Ron Villone
Fernando Vina
Rondell White
Jeff Williams
Todd Williams
Steve Woodard
Kevin Young
Gregg Zaun
PREVIOUSLY LINKED
Manny Alexander
Rick Ankiel
David Bell
Marvin Benard
Barry Bonds
Ricky Bones
Paul Byrd
Ken Caminiti
Jose Canseco
Paxton Crawford
Lenny Dykstra
Bobby Estalella
Ryan Franklin
Jason Giambi
Jeremy Giambi
Jay Gibbons
Troy Glaus
Juan Gonzalez
Jason Grimsley
Jose Guillen
Jerry Hairston Jr.
Darren Holmes
Ryan Jorgensen
Wally Joyner
Gary Matthews Jr.
Rafael Palmeiro
John Rocker
Benito Santiago
Scott Schoeneweis
David Segui
Gary Sheffield
Derrick Turnbow
Randy Velarde
Matt Williams
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slu...yhoo&type=lgns
Clemens is a Cheater
possibly...Quote:
Originally Posted by BM_MAN
Surprised not to See A-Rod There
I merged Wassit's list with this thread. Keep everything here.
There was a bogus report from CNBC earlier this morning, and it looks like that list from ESPN has the names from the bogus report.Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodystar
OH PLEASE! McGwire's Andro story broke the summer he was breaking the home run record, and people still showed. This report changes nothing. The players implicated were all pretty much suspected of it in the first place. People have known for a long time now that steroids were a problem...and MLB is breaking attendance and revenue records.Quote:
Originally Posted by mnstonecold
People use steroids because it conditions the body and promotes quicker and better recovery from injury, and because some do increase some muscle mass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogul2000
Hitting a ball far requires MUCH more than pure strength, much more than steroids helps.Quote:
I don't see how you can argue that an athlete who uses them and strength trains is not going to be a more powerful hitter.He is going to have more powerful legs, shoulders, torso, everything that will help him drive a ball farther.
I'm sure there are players out there that would "shock us", power hitter or not, but you said that baseball is "protecting the sport" by not "going after" the power guys. That sure sounds like you're suggesting that baseball should "go after" power guys because they're power hitters, and that would be completely wrong.Quote:
Is every power guy on steroids. NO. May there be some that are out there that would shock all of us? I just believe this is probably true. Thats all.
Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by BM MAN
Well He Could Covering his ***Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Clemens is taking the Barry Bonds route. :P
The 2 names I am suprised to see:
Chuck Knoblauch
Andy Pettitte
You know I still feel Mark McGwire was treated too rough. He took Andro which was legal at the time. The next year he stopped taking it when they banned it and still had a good year!
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD
Yeah, I think players that took it when it was legal should be taken a little more lightly. Because if there's no rule for it, then why be penalized for it? Is it cheating? It's considered cheating now, but then, they didn't consider it that way.
Maybe his *** is still sore from all those injections!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by BM_MAN
You're right. We don't know how much steroids help a player hit home runs....which is precisely why we shouldn't just assume someone does based on a home run total.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogul2000
He did hit 49 in his rookie year. Andro or not, the man was powerful.Quote:
The year McGwire broke the record and hit 70, would he have hit 70 without Andro? or 60? or 40? No one knows.
It probably does help SOMETHING. I'm more inclined to believe that it helps players recover from injury better and stay on the field longer more than it helps them hit home runs, because that's one of the big things that steroids do. I'm sure it does help them become better players, but we don't know how or to what degree, so speculating and going after players based on the number of home runs they hit is wrong.Quote:
I am more inclined to think it helps something or the use of it would have died out instead of proliferating.
There's steroids testing in place now. If these popular young players you're thinking of were taking steroids, they'd be caught. Yes, they could be taking HGH, which doesn't help you hit more home runs, but the reason the report is mostly older players is because steroid use HAS declined BECAUSE testing is now in place.Quote:
The players I am thinking about that would "shock us" are players that are in their prime or entering their prime, are very productive (pitcher or hitter) and wildly popular. I am not so sure that this isn't being covered up if evidence was found for the good of the game. The Mitchell report makes it seem that the steroid era was a bunch of old players that are now retired or close to retiring and thus we can wrap it up and move on. Then again I am a paranoid conspiracy theorist:D
Exactly. It was not illegal at the time so why penalize someone for trying to get a legal edge. Now if someone took Andro after it was banned then fine you can crack down on him, ban him, penalize him or whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert
There are multiple reasons for power surges - they've happened multiple times throughout history. The ball changes, the ballparks are smaller, improvements in weight training, expansion...An increase in power may be related to steroids, but it is not necessarily related to steroids. If you have any evidence to back up this claim, please, provide it, but I think you'll have trouble finding any.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogul2000
Furthermore, even if steroids did play more than a minor role in the leaguewide increase in offense, this is NOT a reason to automatically suspect power hitters of steroid use. The increase was leaguewide.
They could be, but hitting home runs is no reason to suspect them of it (especially in regards to HGH). If you do that, you're assuming that you can only hit a lot of home runs if you take steroids...in which case, you're suspecting a crapload of players.Quote:
They could be taking HGH or another designer steroid that is undetectable by todays analytic methods just as the cream and the clear were in their day.
This is exactly why Selig is a big fool. This is what I was afraid would happen.http://chicagosports.chicagotribune....home-headlines
This could get ugly quickly.
Sometimes I wonder if losing the anti-trust exemption wouldn't be a *good* thing....
--Pet
Honestly, I think Congress needs to get its head out of baseball.
Hey, HGM, isn't that, no, it couldn't be, Brendan Donnelley, on the steroid report? How'd that name get in there?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Huh?
Since they have already gone this far they might as well finish it. Maybe they'll do more than name players, like maybe coachs like Larussa.
Why? Its proven that they can't control or govern themselves. Maybe its time for someone to say, if you don't clean yourselves up we'll do it for you. And it might be a wake up call for all major league sports that if you don't get it right, we'll get involved and won't spare someone because they are a insider in that peticular sport.Quote:
I think Congress needs to get its head out of baseball.
I also hate to have government involved in anything, but the evidence is their that baseball can't govern themselves
That's pretty much why.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reade
I think baseball now gets it that it has to fix this problem, and will, with or without Congressional oversight.
This is incorrect it was actually illegal (Steroids Act of 1990) when the players' are supposed to have been using it.However,the MLB only "outlawed" it post the Steroids Act & even then started testing post that date....basically a lot of players/trainers' found a "loophole" in the rules & exploited it for their own gains.Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD
One has to consider the whole picture not just the MLB & its rules.Steroids are an illicit drug which cannot be used without a certified doctor's prescription for a real ailment.IN the case of players',they knowingly were using it outside the context of medicair & thus were breaking FEDERAL law,simple as that steroids is considered "federally" in the same context as heroine & cocaine.;)
Which is something that goes on in nearly every competitive sport at one time or another.Quote:
Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX
And unless a player is caught actually using cocaine or heroin, like say, Steve Howe, the MLB does not punish them. If hearsay evidence comes out years later, like Tim Raines admitting to cocaine usage, the MLB does not retroactively punish him. Why should steroids be held to a different standard?Quote:
simple as that steroids is considered "federally" in the same context as heroine & cocaine.;)
I had been wondering if anyone of these players could be charged with a federal drug charge. As you said steroids fall under the same laws as pot, coke, heroine. So a would a cancelled check to a steroid supplier be consider evidence to an illegal act, if the supplier has already been caught like Balco. Its also against the law to buy drugs, just not using themQuote:
One has to consider the whole picture not just the MLB & its rules.Steroids are an illicit drug which cannot be used without a certified doctor's prescription for a real ailment.IN the case of players',they knowingly were using it outside the context of medicair & thus were breaking FEDERAL law,simple as that steroids is considered "federally" in the same context as heroine & cocaine.
Cancelled checks would be considered evidence. I'm no legal expert, but I would assume that it would probably take more than just cancelled checks, especially in the case of like Kurt Radomski. There's no evidence beside Radomski's word that the checks were written to him FOR steroids. Now, don't get me wrong, I do believe that they were, but I don't think it'd hold up in a court of law.
In order for them to actually be convicted, it'd require evidence that the player had illegal drugs in his possession.
Checks,samples & actual possession are all evidence - it then upto the Government to decide if it is feasible & worth it (as a Federal Trial has millions of dollars of cost involved).Quote:
Originally Posted by Reade
The pecuniary aspect is a major element in all Federal cases & the most logical way is to indite the producer/supplier & obtain the list of his "clients" & indite them on lesser charges (basically what they have been doing with BALCO & the internet pharmacy groups in New Jersey & Florida).
Thus the problems that Marion Jones & now Bonds' have.
Actually there is evidence of Radomski's "cancelled checks",paid checks & "steroid" supply (& thus possession), in his ledgers WHICH are held by the Feds (& thus Mitchell & Co. could not obtain the factual evidence as they have NO real jurisdiction & had to "rely" on Radomski's word.)Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
However,it is not in Radomski's motivation to lie either to Mitchell as he has already told the Federals' the same story & has clearly given them evidence sustaining the names provided.