Mitchell report due today

I wish I had the day off just to watch the press conferences, but I have to work so I'll have to settle for the replays late tonight.

Just heard ESPN say that the yankees trainer fingered Roger Clemons as a regular user. I've heard there will be at least 80 names of former and current players on the list.

Could be a interesting day in the baseball world. The more I read the more I think Mitchell will not have any grounding breaking news to report. The several reports that I've read about the investigation pretty much says they didn't know what they were doing. I believe the only losers of this report will be the players, not the owners, GM's, trainers, or coaches.

I think maybe we should put a * next to Selig's name when he retires as commish.

This is just my personal opinion

Baseball (ie MLB) loved drugs in the late '80's/'90's - the sport was ill,financially at least, & embraced the Sosa/Bonds/McGwire's as helping get Americans (& the world) fall back in love.

As other drug tainted sports (Cycling & Weightlifting come to mind) there has been a shift in ideology - this is not due to getting the sport clean but pure & simple economics.

Let's simply look at the supposed effects* of steroids:

1) increased power &
2) quicker & better recovery from injuries.

So basically a .250 & 15 HR guy turns into a .252 & 30 HR guy & players play 150 games instead of 130.What does that mean ? Not much except when FA is thrown in....under FA the .250/15 guy would command 1/2 million at the time,whereas the latter would demand 5x or even 10x that figure because he played more & produced more.THE OWNERS just don't want to PAY now,simple as that,10x market value for a "false" production.


Secondly,as steroids allowed players quicker & better recovery players played PAST their supposed retirement ( ie fall off) age & re-entered FA for a 2nd or 3rd time (you can put Bonds/Clemens in this category).

However,as FA prices increased for average players SUDDENLY the MLB (ie the owners) decided to pull the "plug" on the miracle of power increase & longetivity by banning Steroids & HGH (under pressure from Congress & WADA) but by NOT testing for them basically "turned a blind eye".Yet,the problem would not go away,as the public demanded a "clean game" (helped by sports writers' ofcourse,smelling a good story!) & the external authorities too.

Testing came in but the MLB STILL TODAY does not test HGH nor uses blood samples for Steroid tracing (unlike Cycling or the Olympics) --- heck Bonds is on record (BALCO trial) to have used every possible "aid" (including a Female HGH & a "Horse" steroid plus the famous clear & cream steroid) yet never been found guilty by the MLB testing of steroids,when he admidted using the BALCO products to the media as testing was being done!

The Mitchell report in itself is a self fulfilling prophecy - as it was intended to show what was already known,that steroids were used - yet will be totally inaccurate & useless.Why ?

1) because it was done "after the horse had bolted" -- ie like any investigation if the "cheaters" & "dealers" KNOW you are coming they will simply shift their production/usage elsewhere or use a new "product" which is untestable - just go onto any I-net pharmacy site or bodybuilding forum & you can easily find untraceable wonder products ;);
2) because Mitchell was not allowed to interview today's players' (thanks again the Union !) & thus was forced to interview past players' & thus cannot "judge" today's game.**
3) He did the investigation without the aid of the Anti doping authorities (WADA nor even USADA)

This is for show!

* Supposed in the sense that there has never been a case study of the usage of steroids on baseball players & can only be shown relative to real studies on body builders & Weighlifters.However,even if there was simply a "placebo" effect then the effects would still be positive.

** unlike Baseball,Cycling has taken PED's seriously,investigating daily---- using Blood sampling,off season samples & even Full season log (ie you have to be able to account for your whereabouts during the 10 month cycling season even if NOT competing & provide coroborative evidence.).

Also countries of the EU have adopted the 2002 Steroids Act & "raid" events whilst they occur to find evidence (yearly raids on the Tour de France & Giro d'Italy have lead to multiple arrests & cases such as 1999 Festina case or the banning just last year of Vinokorov & Rassmussen in the Tour).Weightlifting & Athletics have also started (since Athens 2004) used blood sampling & WADA guidelines leading to bans on Marion Jones,Gaitlin etc etc...

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Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX

banning Steroids & HGM

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HGH! ;)

In other news, I agree with you. This is all just baseball trying to save itself for turning a blind eye to the issue for so long.

I agree that this is pretty much entirely for show, although it will give us greater knowledge of who the cheaters were and allow us to view their accomplishments with a jaundiced eye.

However, neither baseball's management nor its union want a true, Olympic-level drug testing regimen. The union would see such a regimen as a threat to the fortunes of its members; the management can see only negatives from implementing such rules in the media as if such a regimen were to be used and no cheaters were to be found, they wouldn't get any credit, but take all the blame if even one such cheater slipped through.

Furthermore, management doesn't really *want* to police the players -- God knows what else they'd have to find out -- and they see the increase in 'taters as good for the box office gate.

What both sides really want is a *media bandaid*. They both want credit for a "powerful" drug testing regiment which will be deliberately designed to fall short of its goals. For example, urine testers will have to make parking arrangements at stadiums ahead of time, which will give advance notice to players that testers are arriving. Or a regiment which doesn't provide "chaperones" to players who can't provide urine, or doesn't have a GPS/sign-in system which lets testers know where players are at all times, like the Olympics. In short, both sides want a Potemkin-drug testing program which looks cool to the untrained eye but is full of loopholes.

This way, both management and labor can walk hand in hand to the media, and say, "See? Problem solved! Now why don't you watch our nice players hit some home runs?"

At least, the Mitchell report will provide for some entertainment, and it will hopefully condemn the players' union for its lack of cooperation.

--Pet

I hope it doesn't piss of the government, because Selig and Mitchell probably would hate to see them start their own investigation. Even though I wouldn't have much confidence in the government to investigate anything at this point, but at least it wouldn't be a baseball insider doing it.

From the San Francisco Chronicle:

Batboy key to report
Breakthrough for Mitchell

I'm just glad that Batman's son is following in his daddy's footsteps. You have to turn to superheroes to get any justice in this country these days.

--Pet

:p LOL

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Originally Posted by Reade

I hope it doesn't piss of the government, because Selig and Mitchell probably would hate to see them start their own investigation. Even though I wouldn't have much confidence in the government to investigate anything at this point, but at least it wouldn't be a baseball insider doing it.

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Wouldn't the logic (& here I am playing Devil's advocate) be that you ask the suspects (in this case the players',trainers',doctors',dealers/pharmacy companies,pharmacy producers*) the questions on the problem ? The Mitchell report when done was ALLOWED to interview GM's only....now that is like interviewing the Accountant of the Colombian Cartel on the effects of the drug addiction/industry.....:eek:



* note BALCO head Vincent Conte was not ever interviewed.....that is MADNESS!

The Mitchell investigation interviewed more than just general managers...:confused:

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Let's simply look at the supposed effects* of steroids:

1) increased power &
2) quicker & better recovery from injuries.

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From what I know about steroids (I have/had friends that used them), their effect is quicker and better recovery, period. This leads to more power and quicker recovery from injuries. In weight lifting, you are basically injuring yourself, but the rebuilding strengthens you in the process. Steroids allow you quicker recovery so you can lift more often. You still have to put the work in. HGH, that I know very little about.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3142651

They interviewed people all the way down to batboys.

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Originally Posted by SirKodiak

HGH, that I know very little about.

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Using the evidence that is out there, it does nothing for your home run output.

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The Mitchell investigation interviewed more than just general managers...:confused:

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Yes it did BUT only GMs were "forced" to by the bosses,where as:

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He had no subpoena power or other leverage to compel players to participate. The MLB Players Association, led by Donald Fehr and Gene Orza, said it never ordered or even suggested that its players not cooperate;but of the 750 players in the major leagues, none has been identified as having spoken voluntarily to Mitchell's investigators.

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For example, while it was widely believed that each of the 30 general managers was interviewed, scouts, front office special assistants and farm directors were not all asked to interview.

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Mitchell requested removable media -- computer hard drives, for example -- from some departments of each of the 30 teams, while also requesting cell phone and e-mail records from some individuals. Some teams, such as the Baltimore Orioles, Los Angeles Angels and Oakland Athletics, complied. Others, such as Minnesota and Cleveland, were among the more reluctant to cooperate with Mitchell's requests

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it became clear to investigators that, like the players, some of the clubs weren't particularly interested in participating, either. Selig's office sent letters to each of the 30 teams almost as soon as the commissioner announced the investigation's creation, ordering them to comply with Mitchell's requests. Many team employees -- especially the support staff, strength coaches and trainers -- regarded that approach as a threat to their job security.

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So basically they interviewed the non using/dealing members' of the sport,thus my analogy with Accountants ;) ....

Okay...but..

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Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX

The Mitchell report when done was ALLOWED to interview GM's only

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That isn't true. They were allowed to interview anybody...

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Okay...but..


That isn't true. They were allowed to interview anybody...

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Who were allowed to refuse ;) eg all MLB players' except those who were outed (eg Ankiel/Gibbons etc) the rest weren't "officially" approached....but what the heck!

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He had no subpoena power or other leverage to compel players to participate. The MLB Players Association, led by Donald Fehr and Gene Orza, said it never ordered or even suggested that its players not cooperate;but of the 750 players in the major leagues, none has been identified as having spoken voluntarily to Mitchell's investigators.

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Just heard ESPN say that the yankees trainer fingered Roger Clemons as a regular user.

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This makes me happy as a Giants fan that has had to listen to Bonds painted as the anti-Christ while everyone kisses Clemens *** as the best pitcher ever.

Its perfect irony. A pitcher who would probably be placed in the top 5-10 all time and he did roids. Lets see if they crucify him like they have Bonds. Hmmmm I wonder why Clemens is reportedly calling it quits this year.....

I understand all this, but you said that the Mitchell investigators were ONLY ALLOWED to interview GMs. That is a false statement. They were ALLOWED to interview anybody who was willing to participate - which included many more people than just GMs.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/sportsscop...lemens-na.html

Roger, I suspected you were a roid user for years, but everyone looked the other way. Now we all know. Instead of the "Rocket", they'll call him the "Roider".

--Pet

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

I understand all this, but you said that the Mitchell investigators were ONLY ALLOWED to interview GMs. That is a false statement. They were ALLOWED to interview anybody who was willing to participate - which included many more people than just GMs.

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Not false,HGM. Owners forced GMs* to participate - thus all 30 GMs did(because they are PAID employees of their clubs ;) ) - the rest were not even advised,& as seen by the "report"/interview I linked the main "players" of the steroid game were either advised (by the Unions) not too or did not "voluntarily" co-operate as they knew that any co-operation would either:

1) be published ; & worse
2) they could be publicly indicted after the event (would you go & report to an independent committee who has NO administrative powers that you dealt steroids ?)


*allowed in this case = forced

I've never heard of "allowed" meaning "forced", considering they're like almost opposite definitions (allowed, in every way I've ever heard it used, means to have the choice to do it, while forced means...you're given no choice), but um, okay.

Anyway, new report from CNBC basically tells me what I thought all along - nearly every player has done something.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/fea...rticleid=29662

I'm fairly skeptical of that, considering it lists Juan Gonzalez and Troy Glaus twice, calls Mo Vaugh Maurice, misspells Rafael Betancourt and other names, etc., but, it seems like a fairly reasonable expectation.

According to the Mitchell investigators, this is a phony list. The real list apparently doesn't have many position players on it, but a lot of pitchers.

--Pet

And, honestly, I agree with Scott Boras on this issue:

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Scott Boras, who represents a number of high-profile players including Yankee third baseman Alex Rodriguez, told The Los Angeles Times he hadn't read the report. He did, however, say he's wary because he believes "the concerns of due process and the standards that apply to it are relatively unknown. Certainly, any results that occur from the report have to be looked at in the light that this is not a collectively bargained effort."

"I'm going to assume that a lot of the basis for this is hearsay information," Boras said, according to The Times. "It's not based on any kind of clinical testing, so it is widely a product of hearsay testimony. Without clinical testing or hard evidence, any report like this has to be reviewed with great scrutiny."

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The players named are mostly going to be based off what someone said, not necessarily factual information.

The basic thing is that steroid use was extremely widespread and baseball did literally nothing about it until after the fact. The only thing it can do now is focus on removing PEDs from the sport and preventing their future use. It can't go back and undo what happened. It's just another era in the game, just like the widespread amphetamine use in the 1970s and the cocaine use of the early 80's.

Here's more evidence that the "report" was false - it's been removed from CNBC's website.

I'm kicking back and watching ESPN's full live coverage of this...if for no reason that this is the only time in the offseason that baseball gets more than a footnote on ESPN....so I'll chime in immediately when new information arises.

SI confirmed some names: Roger Clemens, Andy Pettite, Chuck Knoblauch, Mike Stanton, Jason Grimsley, Brian Roberts, Miguel Tejada, and David Justice.

Not Muke Stanton!

(old joke for people playing BM for a looooong time)

--Pet

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Originally Posted by rogue9

I wonder why Clemens is reportedly calling it quits this year.....

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because he is 60 years old.

More names connected: Paul Lo Duca, Rondell White, David Segui, Denny Neagle and Fernando Vina

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

More names connected: Paul Lo Duca, Rondell White, David Segui, Denny Neagle and Fernando Vina

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PAUL LO DUCA????? Apparently nothing could help him hit homeruns! ;)

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Originally Posted by Coach Owens

PAUL LO DUCA????? Apparently nothing could help him hit homeruns! ;)

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He did have that one year with 25 (In 2001..perhaps it's no coincidence that he forgot how to hit home runs once testing was implemented).

I know Luis Gonzalez will be a name revealed.

scanning the report currently...not reading too much of the actual infromation, just looking at the names.

....eric gagne, david justice, kevin brown....

I've only had time for a quick scan through some of the report, but suffice to say that LoDuca's name shows up a lot in there. I always figured something was fishy about his power surge with the Dodgers; they apparently knew it too which is why they traded him even though he was one of the most popular Dodgers at the time.

Gagne is in there too. Can't say as I'm surprised.

I just downloaded the report from ESPN and I'm skipping it over now.

The names I see (NOTE: This isn't a list of players who were found out to be steroid users. These are players whose names I see in relation to performance-enhancing drugs in some way. I am just skimming the report)...

Jason Grimsley, Mark McGwire, Steve Bechler, Manny Alexander, Ken Caminiti, Jose Canseco, Lenny Dykstra, Wally Joyner, Derrick Turnbow, Barry Bonds, Rafael Palmeiro, Gary Sheffield, Sammy Sosa, Ricky Bones, Alex Cabrera, Juan Gonzalez, Rafael Palmeiro, Miguel Tejada, Larry Bigbie, David Segui, Paxton Crawford, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Armando Rios, Benito Santiago, Marvin Benard, Randy Velarde, Bobby Estalella, Chad Allen, Adam Piatt, Brian Roberts, Tim Laker, Josias Manzanillo, Todd Hundley, Jack Cust, Chris Donnels, Mark Carreon, Hal Morris, Matt Franco, Rondell White, Roger Clemens, Andy Pettite, Chuck Knoblauch, Gregg Zaun, David Justice, F.P. Santangelo, Glenallen Hill, Mo Vaughn, Denny Neagle, Ron Villone, Ryan Franklin, Todd Williams, Phill Hiatt, Todd Pratt, Kevin Young, Mike Lansing, Cody McKay, Kent Mercker, Jason Christiansen, Mike Stanton, Stephen Randolph, Jerry Hairston Jr., Paul Lo Duca, Adam Riggs, Bart Miadich, Fernando Vina, Kevin Brown, Eric Gagne, Mike Bell, Matt Herges, Gary Bennett Jr., Jim Parque, Brendan Donnelly, Jeff Williams, Howie Clark, Nook Logan, Mike Judd, Ricky Stone, Dan Naulty, Rick Ankiel, Paul Byrd, Jay Gibbons, Troy Glaus, Jose Guillen, Scott Schoeneweis, David Bell, Darren Holmes, John Rocker, Ismael Valdez, Steve Woodard, Matt Williams, Gary Matthews Jr.

Note: McGwire is only mentioned for his andro story. Sosa is only mentioned in that he refused to be interviewed.

So, basically, besides the usual suspescts, Roger Clemens, Miguel Tejada, Kevin Brown and Andy Pettite...nobody really important. Paul Lo Duca and Eric Gagne are the only ones I would say were "surprising."

Basically, I don't think this does much...This is definitely not a definitive list of who did and didn't do steroids. There are TONS more players who did things that aren't in the report. But, like this list shows, the majority of players that do steroids are borderline guys who use it to get major league action. The majority of the players aren't good players. There are some notable exceptions, but for the most part, it's mostly nobodies.


Furthermore, some of the players, the evidence against them is PURELY hearsay...like Brian Roberts.

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Originally Posted by Coach Owens

I know Luis Gonzalez will be a name revealed.

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Nope.

I actually was surprised to see Pettite on the list.

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Originally Posted by Mogul2000

I'm at least suspicious that they are protecting the sport to some degree by not going after some names that would be real jaw-droppers. I won't name names but I think we all have an idea of the power guys I am talking about who are extremely popular.

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Roger Clemens and Andy Pettite aren't "jaw-droppers"?

Look at the list of players named. I hope you see that most of them aren't home run hitting "power guys." Being a power hitter is NOT AT ALL a reason to suspect steroid use. Frank Thomas, a huge guy and a great power hitter, has long been a vocal supporter of drug testing.

They CANNOT "go after" people just because they hit home runs. They can only "go after" players where there is at least some evidence of use.

Bonds was vilified by the media and many fans in almost gleeful manner , long before it was discovered he lied.

So I can expect the same with Clemens ******** yes ?

There will be talk about *****, there will be hearings in the Senate in the House about banning his record, the fans and media will be bashing him relentlessly for months and months right ?

Jeremy Giambi should ask for his money back. Either that or he must have really sucked ;)

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Originally Posted by nuzzy62

Jeremy Giambi should ask for his money back. Either that or he must have really sucked ;)

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The majority of players named sucked. Thats the thing. The people that stand to gain the most from steroid use are the sucky guys - because it'll get them into the bigs and earn them some extra money. The millionaire stars don't stand to gain much from it.

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Originally Posted by scooterbracy

scanning the report currently...not reading too much of the actual infromation, just looking at the names.

....eric gagne, david justice, kevin brown....

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"Gagne"! - A simon-pure Canadian? :eek: He's off our "All-Canadian" team (Dynasty forum), pronto!