Yankees, Twins talking about Santana trade

Hmm...I still don't know, though - in your argument you remove Schilling and Wakefield entirely - with their age, it's conceivable that they might be out for some stretches, but even removing both of those you still have Beckett, Dice-K, Lester, Tavarez, and can call up Buchholz - or have Snyder make a spot-start (which they didn't have to do at all this year).

Tavarez may be inconsistent, but in the world of 5th starters, I think he is just fine. I actually felt bad that we left him off the post-season roster entirely, with all his contribution over the season. I actually don't like his personality or think he's a great pitcher, but he did OK.

Going for the best lefty on the trade market is defensible in many different ways, no matter who your team is - but we just won a world series, and we're bringing back every starting player from that championship world series team. Maybe it's a conscience thing...it just seems a little greedy, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Alloutwar

All good points. Certainly - I wouldn't want him to just ignore the ace on the market while he is shopped around - but from a fan standpoint, with our payroll, I just don't want to start getting into that Yankee-range, being the poster boy for driving player prices up and becoming an 'Evil Empire'.

If Lowrie is a Pedrioa at Shortstop, maybe we could switch him for Lugo inthe deal, instead? :)

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Twins are moving Santana because they CANT or WONT pay him so they wont take Coco & Lugo ,lol!

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Originally Posted by Alloutwar

Are you saying Bowden is in the deal and Lester is out? That report just lists Crisp, Lester, Lowrie and potentially Masterson.

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The deal is not finalized,lol,but Lester & Bowden have been equally mentioned - basically what ESPN/Fox/MLB.com have are Lowrie + Crisp + 2 others both pitchers (I assume that Boston & Minnesota are exchanging names).Yankees have balked on Cano so with the Sox offering a "cheap" MLB CF it does mean the NYY team have to add more in....

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Originally Posted by Alloutwar

I guess, after Freddy Sanchez and Hanley Ramirez, and Cla Meredith and Gabbard and Arroyo...I am just sick of us sending our young talent off, so they can become stars somewhere else. When they stick around, like Pap and Pedroia and Youk, (and now Ellsbury) it gives me someone to root for and grow to really admire, unlike Drew or Manny, or other big-money stars that we bring in.

I just really hope that it is a move to slow the Yankees pursuit and drive up the price, they way they've screwed up our other pursuits over the years (Contreras, Mirabelli trade recently).

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It all depends WHO & WHAT you get back ---- remember that Hanley brought Lowell & Beckett (which won the 07 World series),Sanchez was a deadline deal as was Gabbard.Arroyo was a deal for Wily Mo & his potential,but Bronson was & is no better than a 3/4 in the AL.

Under Epstein,the Sox have actually produced & kept their talent - you mentioned them yourself - Ellsbury,Moss,Papelbon,Youkilis,Pedroia,Lester are ALL home-grown/draftees, trades are part n parcel of the game - & without them Lowe,Tek,Schilling & Pedro would never have played & those 2 titles WOULD not have happened....Bosox have more homegrown talent now than in the 90's when the only "real" Bosox achievement was Trot.


It is by dealing that you maintain your supremacy,especially if those parts you deal are not in your daily/yearly plans eg Kabbard/Murphy or even Hanley who was seen to have to many extra baseball issues to be successful in Boston (ie Manny II but without the pedigree ;) )

Better watch them Marlins they might slip in the backdoor here. With Santana and D-Train it just might push them to get their new stadium done and they have alot of young players to offer.

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Originally Posted by Alloutwar

Boston gains in Santana race

As Red_Sox_Fan_734 pointed out, it looks like the Sox are now in the lead for Santana. I have to ask, as a red sox fan - why?? We just went out and overpaid for Schilling to return ($8+ mil with incentives on top of that), and gave Lowell a huge deal. I know the World Series win probably generated a huge cash influx, but...we already have an amazing rotation - and its overfilled! Beckett, Schilling, Matsuzaka, Wakefield, Lester, Tavarez, and Buchholz waiting for a spot...the last few years we haven't even had space to put Lester and Buchholz in unless someone else had an injury. And this isn't even mentioning the spot-starters we've dealt away (Kason Gabbard, Bronson Arroyo) or relegated to bullpen work (Kyle Snyder).

This is one deal I don't want to see - we've already won two WS in four years, we already have a stellar rotation, and we already have the second-highest payroll in baseball. I don't want us to get like the Yankees, and start stockpiling expensive talent in some hoarding fashion...I am perfectly happy seeing the young guys excel, like Papelbon, Pedroia, and Youkillis have. If we bring in Santana, and have to pay him $15-$19mil a year, along with Beckett and Matsuzaka...well, I just don't want to be looked at the way the Yankees are.

Unless the Twins are using our deal as a pushing point to get more from other clubs, or we are trying to block the deal to the Yankees, I am not sure if I see the bright side of this.

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Well, in the trade, Lester would be traded so that leaves Beckett, Santana. Dice, Schilling, Tavarez, Bucholz, and Wake. Tavarez is inconsistent and i wouldnt trust him in our rotation. Which leaves 6 starters. Buchholz started iff great last year, but you never know, it5 may have been beginners luck. That leaves 5 starters. Now assume as FRS said Wake and Schill are both injured somepoint in the year. Buchholz goes back in the rotation. So basically we hve this:


Beckett, Santana, Dice-K, Schilling, Wake
Or with injuries
Beckett, Santana, Dice-K, Wake or Schill, Buccholz.

That leaves us with 2 aces in Santana and Beckett. If this year was just an adjustment year for Dice-K(which i think it was) if he can turn it around like Beckett this year then thats 3 aces. Add in Schilling, probably a #2 on most other teams, Wakefield's crazy knuckleball and a possilble ROY candidate in Buchholz. 2008 WS here we come!

3 aces?? Thats my question - is that really necessary?

I guess I am most concerned that, two years down the road, Pedroia, Youk, Pap and Ellsbury are going to be wanting decent money. Ortiz, Beckett, and others will want huge payroll as well. If we go nab the great hope Santana, and extend his contract at $18mil or something...that's money we won't be able to allocate elsewhere, and those young players could head off - or we could be forced to deal them.

What if Lester is the best lefty in the market at that point, and Santana has fizzled? Or Pedro'd out? As a GM, I've certainly been loathe to give up on the young (cheap, happy) talent, especially for very expensive, top-shelf guys that have huge demands and could easily be negated via injury or quick decline. For me, the incremental gain (say, rotation going to 94 rating to 100 rating) isn't worth the cost.

But I admit, I am not a normal fan; I would rather not have A-rod on the team, and I would rather have kept Trot than signed Drew (weren't their numbers identical? And wasn't Trot about $11mil cheaper?). I am not just concerned with having the best player in every way possible, including taking other team's #1s and putting them in as my #3 or #4. What's next - trade away Buchholz and some others for the best catcher available, to backup Varitek in '08 'just in case' he goes down with injury?

At some point, when you are lucky enough to have such an amazing team, you really have to look very hard at deals like this and see if it is worth giving up great young talent when you really don't need any more pieces to be the best.

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Originally Posted by Alloutwar

3 aces?? Thats my question - is that really necessary?

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Maybe not necessary, but it led the Braves to over a decade of division titles. Maximizing the talent on your team, from a GM's perspective, should always be necessary.

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I guess I am most concerned that, two years down the road, Pedroia, Youk, Pap and Ellsbury are going to be wanting decent money. Ortiz, Beckett, and others will want huge payroll as well. If we go nab the great hope Santana, and extend his contract at $18mil or something...that's money we won't be able to allocate elsewhere, and those young players could head off - or we could be forced to deal them.

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I don't think the Red Sox are ever going to be in a position to be forced to deal players to cut salary, even with Santana on the books.

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(weren't their numbers identical? And wasn't Trot about $11mil cheaper?).

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Trot was cheaper, Drew was younger, and while young Trot had numbers identical to Drew, current Trot didn't.




Honestly, I think the Red Sox only really joined the discussions because the Yankees were going for Santana hard. The Red Sox should try to prevent Santana from going to the Yankees.

That could be true - I certainly hope so. I'd much rather have Santana on the Pirates (har har har), or an NL team, so we don't have to face him.

And everyone does bring up valid, good reasoning about why this deal would make sense from a GM perspective. Theo is certainly an amazing GM, so it wouldn't be prudent to ignore this opportunity, at the least. Anything is worth exploring. As long as us Sox fans are all happy and satisfied with what we already have, and don't start getting spoiled. :)

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Originally Posted by Alloutwar

3 aces?? Thats my question - is that really necessary?

I guess I am most concerned that, two years down the road, Pedroia, Youk, Pap and Ellsbury are going to be wanting decent money..

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I think you are over reacting slightly - Pedrioa,Ellsbury have 3 more years even before arbitration kicks in,Papelbon has at least 2 & by then Manny & his 18 million will be off the books.The thing is,IMO,contracts are going only 1 way & that is up - when Coco signed his deal it was seen as expensive,now it is cheap.Beckett's deal compared to Meche or Suppan's deals looks daily more & more a steal....the economics have changed & changed pretty quick.After the 2000 Manny/A-Rod deals there was a market downgrade but since '05 the market has re adjusted & 11 million $ pitchers WHO aren't even Aces or #2 are becoming league average.Lohse who own a LOSING career record is looking (& most probably get) 11 per year for 4/5 years! So it is clear a Johan with his resumé,stuff & being left handed & <30 will command Zambrano type figures.That is WHY the Twins are "dealing" him (or should I say whipping up the market for a possible trade).

Ellsbury now offered in package deal for Santana. View article...

Yah - Lester is now out of the deal, if Ellsbury is in - but that means we stick with Crisp. Arrgh. Ellsbury could be an amazing player - speed, hitting, fielding...after seeing him play, I really think he's got it all. I was just beginning to accept the possibility of losing Lester/Lowrie/Masterson...losing Ellsbury I don't like at all.

I think that you're right to be upset, there. Moving Ellesbury would be a mistake, in my opinion.

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Beckett, Schilling, Matsuzaka, Wakefield, Lester, Tavarez, and Buchholz

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Other than Beckett, who else will be a dominate pitcher for the next couple of years.

Schilling- be lucky to get a whole season in without injuries, probably last year
Matsuzaka- could be, but needs alot of endurance work to be able to finish a whole season
Wakefield- another guy that can't pitch a whole season without some breaks.
Lester- alot of talent, hasn't even pitch a whole season yet, hasn't even pitched 5 or 6 good games back to back
Buckholz- alot of talent, but has not proven himself in a full season yet.
Tavarez- well he's just a complete head case. Good for a few light starts


Beckett and Mats are the only 2 that you can say will be good, at this point, beyond next season. I'm sorry but great pitchers only come once in awhile, there are great hitters (Ellsbury not there yet) all over the league.

If you can put a rotation like Beckett, Santana, Mats together, and if Lester and Buckholz develop into average starters, it could be a rotation that is even better than the Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz rotation that dominated hitters for about 10 years.

I've seen Matsuzaka's stuff and I can't say that I've been impressed. As such, even if Beckett is dominating as always, I highly doubt that we'll see anything that can compare to the Braves with Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz.



If anything, I think Johan will probably end up with the Yankees, because they do have the better offer. Melky should be rated a lot higher than he is. When he plays consistently in the outfield, you'll see him produce. With Hughes in the same deal, the Twins will get a talented starting pitcher to add to their rotation.

What are you getting from the Bosox? Either a centerfielder or a young starting pitcher. That's not going to be enough.

Well I was all for this trade at first. Now that it is close I am having second thoughts. I am ok if the Yanks give up Hughes or Kennedy and a couple of second tier pitchers....heck even some minor league infielders but Cabrera AND Hughes....NO!!!!!!! Cabrera has been the only bright spot in the Yanks outfield for 2 years. Matsui is falling apart, Damon is just awful and Abreu is the only other viable outfielder. Don't give up the only young outfielder we have!

The Melky Way, all the way! XD

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If you can put a rotation like Beckett, Santana, Mats together, and if Lester and Buckholz develop into average starters

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I did say if twice. The 2 times I saw Mats pitched he looked ok, but both were after a extra day off. I don't believe the Red Sox will get back to the WS without improving their starting pitching, there's just to many unknowns in their rotation. Heck their talkin Heron if they don't get Santana, so even Theo knows they need help.

Haren? Oakland A's? Oh the Bosox are going to have to pay. :P

The A's want both Hughes and Kennedy from the Yankees for Haren. Wonder who they'll want from the Bosox.

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Schilling- be lucky to get a whole season in without injuries, probably last year
Matsuzaka- could be, but needs alot of endurance work to be able to finish a whole season
Wakefield- another guy that can't pitch a whole season without some breaks.
Lester- alot of talent, hasn't even pitch a whole season yet, hasn't even pitched 5 or 6 good games back to back
Buckholz- alot of talent, but has not proven himself in a full season yet.
Tavarez- well he's just a complete head case. Good for a few light starts

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I think this is vastly underrating the rotation that won the WS last year. If you don't follow the red sox, you might not realize that Wakefield was leading in both wins and ERA for a significant part of 2006...and despite not hitting 200 innings this year, he still made 31 starts. For a 40-year old guy, he is in great shape - and he's throwing the knuckleball, man. He's not reaching back and giving it all, like Schilling/Clemens/Glavine/Johnson. and his 17-12 record and 4.76 ERA would have been a great 3rd starter on most teams (like the Yankees). Instead, he is our 4th.

Yes, Lester and Buchholz are unproven (no-hitter aside). Yes, Tavarez is not the best starter - but for a 5th starter, or even spot starter, he is fine. But even if Schilling implodes, and one of those two doesnt develop, or Matsuzaka ends up a Igawa-type bust, I am still confident in the rotation and its depth.

If we're going to be so critical of the Boston rotation - is there another rotation in baseball that can stack up to its depth at this point? Is there a rotation that someone likes more than Boston's? I am just curious.

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Originally Posted by Alloutwar

Is there a rotation that someone likes more than Boston's? I am just curious.

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Toronto's is nice WHEN HEALTHY - "Doc" Hallyday is an ACE,A.J.Burnett is a co-ace (but is less & less healthy),McGowan is under-rated but was 1 out from a no hitter & is only 25,Marcum same as McGowan,Litsch looks like a 2/3 & is only 22 & they also have Chacin who has a nice career & is still only 26 .

In the NL San Diego's 1 to 3 punch of : Peavy,Maddux & Young is pretty good,Germano showed last year he is a good 4,& they have Cassel/Hensley/Ledezma or Stauffer for 5....

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Originally Posted by RickD

Well I was all for this trade at first. Now that it is close I am having second thoughts. I am ok if the Yanks give up Hughes or Kennedy and a couple of second tier pitchers....heck even some minor league infielders but Cabrera AND Hughes....NO!!!!!!! Cabrera has been the only bright spot in the Yanks outfield for 2 years. Matsui is falling apart, Damon is just awful and Abreu is the only other viable outfielder. Don't give up the only young outfielder we have!

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You have a few good young outfielders in the minors - Austin jackson, Jose Tabata....

Cabrera has been the only bright spot? Sure, Damon's battled injuries and Matsui's been inconsistent...but they've both outhit Cabrera. Cabrera's a better defender, but offensively, he hasn't shown much. .275/.340/.388 line is nothing to get excited about.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

You have a few good young outfielders in the minors - Austin jackson, Jose Tabata....

Cabrera has been the only bright spot? Sure, Damon's battled injuries and Matsui's been inconsistent...but they've both outhit Cabrera. Cabrera's a better defender, but offensively, he hasn't shown much. .275/.340/.388 line is nothing to get excited about.

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but it is decent and if you can use him to upgrade your pitching via trade, why not?

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

You have a few good young outfielders in the minors - Austin jackson, Jose Tabata....

Cabrera has been the only bright spot? Sure, Damon's battled injuries and Matsui's been inconsistent...but they've both outhit Cabrera. Cabrera's a better defender, but offensively, he hasn't shown much. .275/.340/.388 line is nothing to get excited about.

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OK first I was speaking emotionally not using numbers.....however Damon himself acknowledged Cabrera was the future in the outfield. I would rather have Cabrera at this point!

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Originally Posted by Wassit3

but it is decent and if you can use him to upgrade your pitching via trade, why not?

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That's my point. The Yankees should use Cabrera to upgrade their pitching.

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Originally Posted by RickD

however Damon himself acknowledged Cabrera was the future in the outfield. I would rather have Cabrera at this point!

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Cabrera than who? Damon? Fair enough, but look at it realistically. Damon's under contract and not really tradable. Cabrera's a hot commodity and can bring in the best pitcher alive...

But...and again emotional thinking.....The guys in the minors are not proven at the MLB level. You have 3 aging guys and one young guy in the outfield don't give up the young one. For that matter get rid of Shelly Duncan!

Shelley Duncan won't net Johan Santana. You have to weigh the two options. Three proven aging outfielders plus one young currently so-so outfielder...or three proven aging outfielders plus the best pitcher in the world.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Shelley Duncan won't net Johan Santana. You have to weigh the two options. Three proven aging outfielders plus one young currently so-so outfielder...or three proven aging outfielders plus the best pitcher in the world.

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Exactly. Making that trade improves the team immediately, and may even be necessary to compete with Boston over the next year or two. Regardless of what Hank Steinbrenner said several weeks ago the Yankees aren't and may never be in a rebuilding a mode, because they don't have to be.

I like Cabrera, and he may end up having a great career. But, he's far from irreplaceable right now. Part of the value of a good farm system that creates players like him is the value they can bring in the trade market.

Could they use him a few years down the road? Sure, but whether it's him or somebody else there will always be players available and every player for the foreseeable future will always be within the Yankees' means. There should be some long-term thinking, and the lack of it has been a weakness of the team's management for the past few years. But the team isn't in the position of having to think only long term -- they have the luxury of being able to both spend today and build for tomorrow, and may for once beginning to balance the two.

Ah but Hughes, Damon and Duncan would be a good deal and I am ok with that. Even Hughes and kennedy! Not Melky!

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Originally Posted by RickD

Ah but Hughes, Damon and Duncan would be a good deal and I am ok with that. Even Hughes and kennedy! Not Melky!

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Good deal for the Yankees, obviously. I can say so-so random prospect for Santana would be a good deal. But again, think realistically. The Twins are not going to give up Santana for Hughes, Damon, and Duncan. That would be an absolutely horrible trade for the Twins.

Not like New York couldn't buy Cabrera back in a few years if they trade him. Getting the best pitcher in the game on a team that lacks proven SP would benefit them greatly. I'm not a Yankess fan at all but if my team (mariners) were thinking of trading Adam Jones, Brendan Morrow and whoever else, I'd sure as **** be yelling for them to pull the trigger on it.

Quote from the ESPN Website -

"If the Red Sox get Santana," said an executive of one NL team that's grateful to be in the other league, "they might be the best team in the history of the frigging universe."

Also, sounds like the Yankees may be out of it......

Considering the Yankees still have a better offer on the table than the Red Sox, that's unlikely.

If the Yanks are out, so are the Bosox.

The Yankees are just trying to play hard ball with Minnesota, trying to get them to make a early decision.

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the Yankees still have a better offer on the table than the Red Sox,

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Unless the Red Sox put Ellsbury and Lester in a deal together.

I heard the Yankees may be upping the stakes by putting Jason Giambi in the deal - although the Twins might not like his new look:

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Originally Posted by Alloutwar

I heard the Yankees may be upping the stakes by putting Jason Giambi in the deal - although the Twins might not like his new look:

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Funny pic, but even funnier is the idea that including Giambi and his salary in the package would be "upping the stakes."

I heard that since the Yankees deadline passed the Mariners might try to make a play for Santana. If Bavasi pulls that off, I'd have to change my way of thinking about him. He isn't going to, but I wih he would. Morrow, Jones and Clement for Santana. SOLD!

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3:28 p.m., from Peter Gammons
• The Twins and Red Sox are getting closer to finalizing a Johan Santana deal. Boston has sweetened its offer by adding a fifth player to the the offer -- outfield prospect Ryan Kalish, a ninth-round draft pick in the 2006 out of Red Bank Catholic High School (Shrewsbury, N.J.).

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http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/...inter_meetings

4:25pm:

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In a new twist, the Red Sox have upped the offer to their entire farm system. Minnesota will take control of AAA Pawtucket, AA Portland, and A-ball Lowell affiliates in their entirety - management, stadiums, and all personnel included.

Sources say that Minnesota is still holding out on the deal until Boston promises to include any potential offspring that their current roster might produce.

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lol

"this just in, the Yankees have purchased the Minnesota Twins and declared them their AAA affiliate thus making Santana one of their prospects...."

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Originally Posted by Wassit3

"this just in, the Yankees have purchased the Minnesota Twins and declared them their AAA affiliate thus making Santana one of their prospects...."

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This just in, John Henry, owner of the Boston Red Sox, has upped his present ownership stake in the Yankees, forcing the Bombers into the International League, and delegating the Twins to the independent Pioneer League. :eek: