Re: Yankees, Twins talking about Santana trade
3 aces?? Thats my question - is that really necessary?
I guess I am most concerned that, two years down the road, Pedroia, Youk, Pap and Ellsbury are going to be wanting decent money. Ortiz, Beckett, and others will want huge payroll as well. If we go nab the great hope Santana, and extend his contract at $18mil or something...that's money we won't be able to allocate elsewhere, and those young players could head off - or we could be forced to deal them.
What if Lester is the best lefty in the market at that point, and Santana has fizzled? Or Pedro'd out? As a GM, I've certainly been loathe to give up on the young (cheap, happy) talent, especially for very expensive, top-shelf guys that have huge demands and could easily be negated via injury or quick decline. For me, the incremental gain (say, rotation going to 94 rating to 100 rating) isn't worth the cost.
But I admit, I am not a normal fan; I would rather not have A-rod on the team, and I would rather have kept Trot than signed Drew (weren't their numbers identical? And wasn't Trot about $11mil cheaper?). I am not just concerned with having the best player in every way possible, including taking other team's #1s and putting them in as my #3 or #4. What's next - trade away Buchholz and some others for the best catcher available, to backup Varitek in '08 'just in case' he goes down with injury?
At some point, when you are lucky enough to have such an amazing team, you really have to look very hard at deals like this and see if it is worth giving up great young talent when you really don't need any more pieces to be the best.
Re: Yankees, Twins talking about Santana trade
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Originally Posted by
Alloutwar
3 aces?? Thats my question - is that really necessary?
Maybe not necessary, but it led the Braves to over a decade of division titles. Maximizing the talent on your team, from a GM's perspective, should always be necessary.
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I guess I am most concerned that, two years down the road, Pedroia, Youk, Pap and Ellsbury are going to be wanting decent money. Ortiz, Beckett, and others will want huge payroll as well. If we go nab the great hope Santana, and extend his contract at $18mil or something...that's money we won't be able to allocate elsewhere, and those young players could head off - or we could be forced to deal them.
I don't think the Red Sox are ever going to be in a position to be forced to deal players to cut salary, even with Santana on the books.
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(weren't their numbers identical? And wasn't Trot about $11mil cheaper?).
Trot was cheaper, Drew was younger, and while young Trot had numbers identical to Drew, current Trot didn't.
Honestly, I think the Red Sox only really joined the discussions because the Yankees were going for Santana hard. The Red Sox should try to prevent Santana from going to the Yankees.
Re: Yankees, Twins talking about Santana trade
That could be true - I certainly hope so. I'd much rather have Santana on the Pirates (har har har), or an NL team, so we don't have to face him.
And everyone does bring up valid, good reasoning about why this deal would make sense from a GM perspective. Theo is certainly an amazing GM, so it wouldn't be prudent to ignore this opportunity, at the least. Anything is worth exploring. As long as us Sox fans are all happy and satisfied with what we already have, and don't start getting spoiled. :)
Re: Yankees, Twins talking about Santana trade
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Originally Posted by
Alloutwar
3 aces?? Thats my question - is that really necessary?
I guess I am most concerned that, two years down the road, Pedroia, Youk, Pap and Ellsbury are going to be wanting decent money..
I think you are over reacting slightly - Pedrioa,Ellsbury have 3 more years even before arbitration kicks in,Papelbon has at least 2 & by then Manny & his 18 million will be off the books.The thing is,IMO,contracts are going only 1 way & that is up - when Coco signed his deal it was seen as expensive,now it is cheap.Beckett's deal compared to Meche or Suppan's deals looks daily more & more a steal....the economics have changed & changed pretty quick.After the 2000 Manny/A-Rod deals there was a market downgrade but since '05 the market has re adjusted & 11 million $ pitchers WHO aren't even Aces or #2 are becoming league average.Lohse who own a LOSING career record is looking (& most probably get) 11 per year for 4/5 years! So it is clear a Johan with his resumé,stuff & being left handed & <30 will command Zambrano type figures.That is WHY the Twins are "dealing" him (or should I say whipping up the market for a possible trade).
Re: Yankees, Twins talking about Santana trade
Ellsbury now offered in package deal for Santana. View article...
Yah - Lester is now out of the deal, if Ellsbury is in - but that means we stick with Crisp. Arrgh. Ellsbury could be an amazing player - speed, hitting, fielding...after seeing him play, I really think he's got it all. I was just beginning to accept the possibility of losing Lester/Lowrie/Masterson...losing Ellsbury I don't like at all.
Re: Yankees, Twins talking about Santana trade
I think that you're right to be upset, there. Moving Ellesbury would be a mistake, in my opinion.
Re: Yankees, Twins talking about Santana trade
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Beckett, Schilling, Matsuzaka, Wakefield, Lester, Tavarez, and Buchholz
Other than Beckett, who else will be a dominate pitcher for the next couple of years.
Schilling- be lucky to get a whole season in without injuries, probably last year
Matsuzaka- could be, but needs alot of endurance work to be able to finish a whole season
Wakefield- another guy that can't pitch a whole season without some breaks.
Lester- alot of talent, hasn't even pitch a whole season yet, hasn't even pitched 5 or 6 good games back to back
Buckholz- alot of talent, but has not proven himself in a full season yet.
Tavarez- well he's just a complete head case. Good for a few light starts
Beckett and Mats are the only 2 that you can say will be good, at this point, beyond next season. I'm sorry but great pitchers only come once in awhile, there are great hitters (Ellsbury not there yet) all over the league.
If you can put a rotation like Beckett, Santana, Mats together, and if Lester and Buckholz develop into average starters, it could be a rotation that is even better than the Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz rotation that dominated hitters for about 10 years.
Re: Yankees, Twins talking about Santana trade
I've seen Matsuzaka's stuff and I can't say that I've been impressed. As such, even if Beckett is dominating as always, I highly doubt that we'll see anything that can compare to the Braves with Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz.
If anything, I think Johan will probably end up with the Yankees, because they do have the better offer. Melky should be rated a lot higher than he is. When he plays consistently in the outfield, you'll see him produce. With Hughes in the same deal, the Twins will get a talented starting pitcher to add to their rotation.
What are you getting from the Bosox? Either a centerfielder or a young starting pitcher. That's not going to be enough.
Re: Yankees, Twins talking about Santana trade
Well I was all for this trade at first. Now that it is close I am having second thoughts. I am ok if the Yanks give up Hughes or Kennedy and a couple of second tier pitchers....heck even some minor league infielders but Cabrera AND Hughes....NO!!!!!!! Cabrera has been the only bright spot in the Yanks outfield for 2 years. Matsui is falling apart, Damon is just awful and Abreu is the only other viable outfielder. Don't give up the only young outfielder we have!
Re: Yankees, Twins talking about Santana trade
The Melky Way, all the way! XD
Re: Yankees, Twins talking about Santana trade
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If you can put a rotation like Beckett, Santana, Mats together, and if Lester and Buckholz develop into average starters
I did say if twice. The 2 times I saw Mats pitched he looked ok, but both were after a extra day off. I don't believe the Red Sox will get back to the WS without improving their starting pitching, there's just to many unknowns in their rotation. Heck their talkin Heron if they don't get Santana, so even Theo knows they need help.
Re: Yankees, Twins talking about Santana trade
Haren? Oakland A's? Oh the Bosox are going to have to pay. :P
The A's want both Hughes and Kennedy from the Yankees for Haren. Wonder who they'll want from the Bosox.
Re: Yankees, Twins talking about Santana trade
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Schilling- be lucky to get a whole season in without injuries, probably last year
Matsuzaka- could be, but needs alot of endurance work to be able to finish a whole season
Wakefield- another guy that can't pitch a whole season without some breaks.
Lester- alot of talent, hasn't even pitch a whole season yet, hasn't even pitched 5 or 6 good games back to back
Buckholz- alot of talent, but has not proven himself in a full season yet.
Tavarez- well he's just a complete head case. Good for a few light starts
I think this is vastly underrating the rotation that won the WS last year. If you don't follow the red sox, you might not realize that Wakefield was leading in both wins and ERA for a significant part of 2006...and despite not hitting 200 innings this year, he still made 31 starts. For a 40-year old guy, he is in great shape - and he's throwing the knuckleball, man. He's not reaching back and giving it all, like Schilling/Clemens/Glavine/Johnson. and his 17-12 record and 4.76 ERA would have been a great 3rd starter on most teams (like the Yankees). Instead, he is our 4th.
Yes, Lester and Buchholz are unproven (no-hitter aside). Yes, Tavarez is not the best starter - but for a 5th starter, or even spot starter, he is fine. But even if Schilling implodes, and one of those two doesnt develop, or Matsuzaka ends up a Igawa-type bust, I am still confident in the rotation and its depth.
If we're going to be so critical of the Boston rotation - is there another rotation in baseball that can stack up to its depth at this point? Is there a rotation that someone likes more than Boston's? I am just curious.
Re: Yankees, Twins talking about Santana trade
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Originally Posted by
Alloutwar
Is there a rotation that someone likes more than Boston's? I am just curious.
Toronto's is nice WHEN HEALTHY - "Doc" Hallyday is an ACE,A.J.Burnett is a co-ace (but is less & less healthy),McGowan is under-rated but was 1 out from a no hitter & is only 25,Marcum same as McGowan,Litsch looks like a 2/3 & is only 22 & they also have Chacin who has a nice career & is still only 26 .
In the NL San Diego's 1 to 3 punch of : Peavy,Maddux & Young is pretty good,Germano showed last year he is a good 4,& they have Cassel/Hensley/Ledezma or Stauffer for 5....
Re: Yankees, Twins talking about Santana trade
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Originally Posted by
RickD
Well I was all for this trade at first. Now that it is close I am having second thoughts. I am ok if the Yanks give up Hughes or Kennedy and a couple of second tier pitchers....heck even some minor league infielders but Cabrera AND Hughes....NO!!!!!!! Cabrera has been the only bright spot in the Yanks outfield for 2 years. Matsui is falling apart, Damon is just awful and Abreu is the only other viable outfielder. Don't give up the only young outfielder we have!
You have a few good young outfielders in the minors - Austin jackson, Jose Tabata....
Cabrera has been the only bright spot? Sure, Damon's battled injuries and Matsui's been inconsistent...but they've both outhit Cabrera. Cabrera's a better defender, but offensively, he hasn't shown much. .275/.340/.388 line is nothing to get excited about.
