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And the increased bulk may result in a lose of agility and/or bat speed, which could offset the increase in strength.Quote:
Originally Posted by petrel
There's no way to tell what steroids do for a player's on-field performance, and if there is, I'd sure love to see it.
Real power doesn't come from strength though, it comes from hitting the ball correctly. Obviously, you need to be able to get the bat around in time to hit a major league fastball, but other then that home runs are more about hitting the sweet spot on the bat and using a proper batting stroke. At least, that's what I've read.
More importantly though, steroids are sure to directly help pitchers much more than hitters. Pitchers are constantly not only exerting pure arm strength but their also actually tearing up tissue in their arm due mostly to the mechanics of pitching.
Of course, the recovery time effects of steroids are real. That's their primary medical purpose, after all. That effect on a player surely can't be discounted.
In the end, I believe that the primary effect of steroids for baseball players is that it allows them to maintain their optimum performance level for longer periods of time. So, like you mentioned above, while most players are worn down to a nub by August, a steroid user will still be playing as though it's June.
Steroids aren't some magical substance that actually turns people super-human, especially for baseball players. The effects of steroids do nothing to help hand-eye coordination, which is a very large portion of the skill required to play baseball. As a matter of fact, there are some studies that indicate steroids could actually reduce coordination, since the muscle mass that is regenerated tends to be "slow-twitch" muscle, rather than the "fast-twitch" muscle that your body uses for reaction time.
I'm referring to HGM's statement, Lord High Protector of THE HGM. It's his opinion that there isn't any way to know blah, blah, blah, and not a fact. There are also "facts" out there that do state the ways in which a players stats are affected.Quote:
Originally Posted by ohms_law
'Roids definitely enhance muscles...but muscles don't make a better player - heck, Gabe Kapler was like a professional bodybuilder, but he was just OK in the majors. And you don't see many bodybuilders being picked up by MLB teams. There's still a huge amount that relies on talent and ability - which Bonds had long before his neck became thicker than Arnold Schwarzenegger's thigh. (or Giambi started looking more and more like a Mack truck)
It's too bad we don't know how exactly it was affected, although Clay posted some assumed stats here: http://www.sportsmogul.com/content/steroids.htm. That's probably as close to an accurate measurement as we're going to find, until the FDA team up with the Devil Rays for a clinical trial. :D It sucks not having precise measurements...but you can't just turn a blind eye to it, either, simply because no one plops down a clinical trial in front of you. Maybe it ends up hurting them stat-wise, and they just wanted the challenge. Does that make it right?
Either way, I'll pull for the guys not injecting in the locker room, thanks.
Well I see HOF voters going the same way as with Mark McGwire....they will become self righteous and not vote Barry in.
I think ohms understood what you were referring to just fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by robinhoodnik
No, it's not an opinion. It would be an opinion if I said that steroids don't affect stats. That's not what I said. I said that we do not currently know how they do, and there currently is no way to know. If there is, I haven't seen it, and I would think it'd be at least a somewhat decently-sized story.Quote:
It's his opinion that there isn't any way to know blah, blah, blah, and not a fact. There are also "facts" out there that do state the ways in which a players stats are affected.
But, apparantly, you're saying that that's wrong. Please, show us these things that do show exactly how stats are affected by steroids, rather than just saying "They do."
Is there speculation on how stats are affected? Yes. That's different than actual knowledge, though.
Back on topic....do you think Barry will get jail time? I see maybe a year or 2 max. That is IF they can prove the charges! His record will still stand. Baseball record that is but there will be relief across baseball land when ARod or someone else takes 1st place.
Lil' Kim served 366 days and paid a fine for her federal perjury charges...and hers involved a shooting.
I suspect that Bonds would serve 6 months to one year in prison if convicted, and be let out for good behavior after paying a massive fine. Then, he'd write a biography and earn all the money back. A prospective bio title would be "My Struggle". :)
--Pet
Lol
I think Pet meant, a good title would be:
"My Struggle (to find a helmet that fit my gigantic head)"
My struggle to apply the cream!
Or....Cream of What? How I was duped by Balco!
Interesting little fact...when the Feds come after someone, they get a conviction 95% of the time. A lot of defense lawyers will plead out be cause Fed prosecutors tend to be rather merciless. Oh, and from what I've read, Greg Anderson probably didn't roll...now that they have enough info to charge Bonds without his testimony, he simply wasn't needed anymore.
As for steroids' affect on a player, the biggest one would be the lengthening of his effective career. Most guys in their late 30's and early 40's do not produce like that or stay healthy like he did. And it's hardly a coincidence that when baseball started getting 'serious' about looking at steroids, all of a sudden Barry's knees exploded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by petrel
Good points, I agree. Without knowing what the prosecutor has though, it's hard to say more. Right now I think this case has a good shot at falling into the 5% category. It certainly sounds like Barry Bonds and his lawyer aren't going to roll over and plea, at least. Perjury charges are just so hard to prove, I think that they've got a shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arctic Blast
after serving prison time that title could be construed in so many ways,none of them good....Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD
Perhaps not. There's a law on the books that pervents a person from profiting from a crime.Quote:
Originally Posted by petrel
Ah Yes but if he doesn't write about perjury and just about using roids he could do that!
My thinking is, for me and you it probably wouldn't help us hit a major league fastball 500 feet, but for guys that hits above .300 for several years it just might help. But the hunting for heads has come along way to late, they turned their heads(MLB, coaches, owners) for about 20 years and now they want to cry wolf. We need to stop witch hunting the past and worry about the ones that are still trying to do it.
Agreed....anyone since 2004 should be terminated! (Fired I mean!!!!!!)
Yea
Agreed. Which is why Barry's a target. He's still an active player. McGwire is geting his due by the HOF snub, hopefully Sosa, Palmeiro, and anyone else whose drug use comes to light will get the same. If anyone else perjured themselves at those hearings I hope they'll also be run through the legal mill too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reade
No way I am going to go back and read what everyone else wrote at this point because too many **** posts to go through. Here are my thoughts on the whole thing...
Why is Barry Bonds being indicted? Well, because people need a scapegoat. Who better to point the finger at and say, "see he did it! He is the reason our game is ruined! The records are all tainted now!" I mean c'mon, nobody other than Bay Area people even liked Bonds before the steroid scandal happened. There have been many other positive tests and confessions but everyone tends to turn a blind eye to those ones. Yankees won pennants with Giambi on their team, should we take those away now?
Seriously, it's beyond time to get over this story. Bonds took steroids, we all know it, and nobody really gives a rat's ***. Guess what, I'm willing to bet just about anything your team's star player has done so in the past as well! If someone told me that if I took some pills that would lead to me making 5-10x as much money and nobody really cared and everyone else was doing it, I would too!!!
No asterisk should go next to Barry's record unless that asterisk is next to every other record, pennant, or even World Series victory that has had any player that has ever done steroids. Anything else is hypocritical.
hear, hear.
Actually, oddly enough, I find myself in agreement with both of the above posts.
Or we can empty the HOF and restart it as the Morality in Baseball HOF. You might have 1 or 2 players in but hey! :p
Sad thing is, I think baseball is just taking the most heat. Other sports have surely had their fair share of doping, but they all seem to be ones that nobody seems to really give a rat's *** about. With all of the doping being done in all the other sports, it makes you wonder what goes on behind the scenes of the NFL.Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD
I still think Barry should get a HOF vote (mostly because of his pre-roids resume), and I think the Yankees deserve their titles. This is an era in baseball, and the playing field was even. Anyone could have taken roids, many did, including many of the pitchers guys like Barry, Giambi, Sheffield, and Palmeiro were facing.
If I had to pick out a few pitchers as to who was on the juice, I think there is one blatantly obvious one out there... Clemens. All the same arguments people have for Bonds... the big head, the sudden size difference, the longevity in his career... all apply to Clemens as well. But who really cares right? I mean, Clemens isn't one of the best pitchers to ever play the game or anything :rolleyes:
BOOMhauer, excellently said. 100% agreement.
:D You know what to do then... and if you don't, read my sig :pQuote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
It's just a CIRCUS ... the damage has already been done.
No good can come from what is about to happen to Bonds. The record book is screwed up now and forever ... and MLB is to blame.
BTW ... what record did Pete's betting screw up ... NONE
MLB ... you're "nuts"!!
Uh... he's only the all-time hitting leader.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete4256
I guess that's not important?
I agree. Clemens looks like a good candidate for suspicion. Maybe he just had smarter dealers or was luckier. I'd still like to know why Mr. Schilling was at that hearing with Palmeiro, Sosa, McGwire, etc. I kinda doubt that they only dragged in one clean player for contrast.
Yep... and Schilling has been by far the most outspoken player in this whole thing. He seems to want Bonds dead. Maybe it's cuz of his 1.048 OPS vs Schilling... who knows :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by robinhoodnik
Yeah I am curious about all those who were at the hearing now.
I think what he was saying was that his betting didn't affect his hit record, while doing steroids possibly affected Bonds home run recordQuote:
Originally Posted by ohms_law
Ah, I get it.