In my opinion, it's time for Bonds to admit he took them and be a man and take his punishment.
Printable View
In my opinion, it's time for Bonds to admit he took them and be a man and take his punishment.
From http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slu...v=ap&type=lgns
Quote:
""During the criminal investigation, evidence was obtained including positive tests for the presence of anabolic steroids and other performance enhancing substances for Bonds and other athletes," the indictment read.
I don't know if sports fans can take much more of the Barry carousel.
All I know is an old proverb -- "if you shoot at a king, you must kill him". If the feds screw up the prosecution, even Barry's detractors might conclude that Bonds has suffered enough.
--Pet
I'm sick of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by petrel
I somehow doubt that.Quote:
All I know is an old proverb -- "if you shoot at a king, you must kill him". If the feds screw up the prosecution, even Barry's detractors might conclude that Bonds has suffered enough.
Does this mean that Bonds is definitely not coming back for 2008? I'm not sure. What does everyone else think?
As long as this hangs over him, I think that Bonds is radioactive in the free agent market. In addition to his age and his health, you have the prospect of a trial hanging over one of your players. Just bad publicity all around, despite Bonds's spectacular OBP.
--Pet
"The president is very disappointed to hear this," Bush spokesman Tony Fratto said. "As this case is now in the criminal justice system, we will refrain from any further specific comments about it. But clearly this is a sad day for baseball."
I think that's my favorite quote so far. It's nice to know that our esteemed leader has his finger on the pulse of the sports world.
originally I thought Mark Ecko was a jerk for the aterisk* idea, but now I have to say this, "ATERISK* TIME*******!!!!!!" Lets hope that Bonds is charged. This will Show current players and young children and fans not to mess with steroids. They are stupid and will ruin lives.*****************************************(These are aterisks.)
Yup. Let him be prosecuted just like everyone else in America would be for those charges. The one difference is that Barry's probably got enough financial wherewithall to beat or at the very least minimalize the charges.
Well just remember these are charges but he still hasn't been convicted! Innocent until PROVEN guilty and all!
Who am I kidding...he's done!
I have to think that the feds took this long to put the case together for a reason. After the O.J. case, and more recently the Specter case, I think it's becoming increasingly easy to buy your way out of nearly anything in America. Barry's definitely got the resources at his disposal, but who will his lawyers be?
Yes...good day in baseball. I'm anxious to see if Anderson finally broke or not or if they got something else on him to go forward with this. Enough of the lies already. Truth will come out.
The baseball gods have spoken!! :D:D
You'll find plenty of support for your stance...Quote:
Originally Posted by smasher53972
Really, if he did commit perjury then he should be punished. This whole thing has always, and still does, strike me as a witch hunt though.
Who cares? ********** city!
About bloody time!
************!
Sorry, I think that's my new favorite symbol.
************!
Bonds is done. All hail the fallen king. My only regret is they didn't get to him before he fouled the home run record with a *.
Yea, I agree. His baseball career is likely done because of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by petrel
While I'm not really one to defend G.W. Bush, keep in mind that he was an owner (Texas Rangers, 1989 - 1994).Quote:
Originally Posted by haole
Threads merged
If there is in fact positive tests expect a plea bargain at some point before this is over. Just as every other athlete in these situations they will not go for the jugular and will settle on a lesser penalty for Bonds coming clean and telling exactly how the Balco ring and maybe others operated. Should that happen, I think baseball has some tough decisions regarding Bond's statistics and records.
Bondsies career however, is probably over unless this indictment is based on untruths and is quickly thrown out. Should that happen, and not in the manner of the 'its the gloves don't fit, you must acquit' type of defense, I agree that the public may in fact begin to show some sympathy for Bonds...although not much.
Yea. Regardless of weather or not he ever continues to play, his entire legacy is ridding on this court case now. I have to admit that my interest is a bit piqued to see what (if anything) they have as evidence. My understanding is that perjury charges are never easy to see through, and that's got to be especially true in a case where the defendant is like Bonds.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Baseball doesn't have any tough decisions to make regarding statistics and records. They turned a blind eye to the issue until it was too late.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/
96 players positive for drugs from a substantially smaller list than is currently used.Quote:
UPDATE III: According to a source with knowledge of the Mitchell investigation, baseball’s investigators were given the names and dates of the positive tests mentioned in this indictment. These names are the same as those asked to testify in the initial hearings and include both current and former players. In the 2003 Survey, 96 players failed the test for a list of banned substances substantially smaller than the current banned list.
Steroid use was rampant, and if we're going to strike records from some players, positive test or not, then we're going to have to strike the records of this entire era. The entire era is tainted. If you think otherwise, you're fooling yourself. Baseball let it go on, and it's now shaping up and attempting to stamp out PED use. It's too late to correct what happened in the 90's. The statistics are still part of the history of baseball, and they all should stand.
Well, yea. That's been my stance from the get go.
Baseball should have had testing earlier but I don't agree with people who say baseball did not have testing or a rule agianst it so its ok. They don't need to put a rule in for something that is Illegal to begin with. Bonds broke the law and is gonna get caught in his web of lies.
We're not saying that it's OK. What we are saying is that it's not fair to punish a person retroactively for something that wasn't against the rules. Weather or not steroid use was illegal at the time (which is debatable as well), baseball didn't outlaw it's use. This is the same principle as is enshrined in regular US law, where you can't prosecute someone for an offense that was not illegal at the time of the crime.
I would like to tell him where he could stick that finger of his.Quote:
our esteemed leader has his finger
I agree 100%. MLB is just trying to cover its butt now. Alot of this stuff started earlier than the 90's though, **** LaRussa was letting players do it as early as 1982-83, guys like kittle, luzinski, baines.Quote:
Steroid use was rampant, and if we're going to strike records from some players, positive test or not, then we're going to have to strike the records of this entire era. The entire era is tainted. If you think otherwise, you're fooling yourself. Baseball let it go on, and it's now shaping up and attempting to stamp out PED use. It's too late to correct what happened in the 90's. The statistics are still part of the history of baseball, and they all should stand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohms_law
They don't need to put a rule in for something thats ILLEGAL! Did you see football have rules agianst Dog fighting? No of course not...Your saying its ok he did it because he did not break baseball rules....if you take steroids your breaking the law. Period! I don't know where our country went wrong with thinking that sports rules are above our own laws of our country and states. Whats next...a player shoots another player on the field to score....I can see it now. His defense is that it was not in the football rules that he could not shoot the opponent.
1) Steroids weren't a controlled substance until 2004, when the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 2004 was passed.. So, if a player received a steroid substance from a doctor, with a prescription, then the player didn't do anything legally wrong. It's actually still that way today, there's simply more over site on steroid prescriptions.
2) Michel Vick wasn't suspended specifically for Dog Fighting. The NFL has a weak union and the commissioner has much broader authority. Roger Goodell was able to and did suspend Vick under the NFL's Personal Conduct Policy, and mostly due to his gambling affiliation.
3) No one is saying that sports rules are more important than federal or state law. Their completely separate entities, as they should be.
4) The example about one player shooting another is just silly.
*********************** the ****/heck out of him. i hope his inmate number is *****.
It doesn't make what they did okay, but it means that baseball has no authority over the situation. For illegal things, the law takes care of it. For people that get charged/convicted of crimes, teams are allowed to suspend players for it, etc. It wasn't okay, but neither was letting the situation happen to reap the benefits, and then later doing soemthing about. MLB let it go on. Statistics cannot be taken away. They're a factual record of what occurred on the baseball field. End of story.Quote:
Originally Posted by boomer74
If a baseball player is charged with a crime, and especially if they're convicted, their team can suspend them or what have you. The MLB cannot take action against players that aren't even charged with a crime, and that have not tested positive. They cannot go back to a time when there were no testing procedures and punish players for doing something that was illegal, but not against the MLB rules. The statistics stand. Let the justice system handle people that break the law. Let the MLB handle people that break the rules of baseball. Furthermore, even with broken rules, statistics cannot be wiped away. They document what occurred on the baseball field. If cheating means that the statistics don't count...well...let's just say there wouldn't be much of a statistical record of baseball anymore.Quote:
They don't need to put a rule in for something thats ILLEGAL! Did you see football have rules agianst Dog fighting? No of course not...
Nobody is saying that baseball players taking steroids is okay. If they break the law, they should be punished for it. ALL I am saying is that the statistics cannot be wiped off the books.
Oh by the way, WHO really freakin cares, I'm so tired of talking about Bonds
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Hm. Maybe, maybe not.
He can be banned though. What he did was far, far worse than what Pete Rose did. He can be barred from the Hall of Fame. That would be a great way to deal with a narcissistic creature like Bonds.
Oh, and lest I forget, there's one other thing we can certainly do.
*
If we asterisk him, we must asterisk the entire era. It's a pointless exercise. The entire era was riddled with steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs.
Cheaters have never gotten their statistics asterisked. And yes, maybe using steroids helps your statistics more than other forms of cheating, but the asterisk's purpose is to show that the statistics are tainted with cheating. Therefore, it's only logical to asterisk all cheating-tainted records, regardless of whether it's steroids or spitballs or amphetamines (you know, those things that were probably used by over 3/4ths of the palyers in the 60s, 70s, etc.? Like Mickey Mantle, and Willie Mays, and according to some accounts, Hank Aaron?)
Yea, there are two aspects to this. Hall of fame eligibility/voting/induction, and the statistical record. The statistical record should never be adjusted, fixed, or asterisked. It's simply a historical record of what has occurred, and that should not be tainted. As for the Hall of Fame, that's a completely different story. For Hall of Fame induction we're talking about politics. If a player is to be "asterisked" in the Hall of Fame then he really shouldn't be there at all in my opinion. I guess that there's also the leader boards as well, but those follow the same principle in my view. There's the leaders in the statistical record, then theres the players who are officially recognized as being "the best" in any particular category. The two do not need to be identical at all. There's no reason not to acknowledge the fact that Pete Rose has the most hits in the history of the game for example; while at the same time there's no reason not to continue to acknowledge Ty Cobb as the best hitter ever, since Rose has been banned from baseball for life.
One of my legal friends told me that perjury charges tend to be very hard to prove, since you have to prove the INTENT to lie, not just that a lie occurred. So we'll see if anything sticks.
So, the government decided to indict the Home Run King and accuse him of lying to them. Why is it a crime to lie to an organization that grants itself a monopoly on crime in the first place (afterall, what is war but mass murder and taxation but theft on a massive scale?)? My sympathies are with King Barry in this case, rather than some prosecutor working for the crooked Federal Conviction Machine. I don't care whether he took steroids or whether he lied to the government. He has a right to his body, so he has a right to put whatever he wants in there. As for lying to the goverrnment, that is not a crime, as nobody has any responsibility to tell the truth to criminals (if a robber asks you if you have any valuables, do you have to answer honestly?).
Just a tad bit more radical than I am, but I can't exactly disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by LLP
:)
For the sake of someone who hasn't followed the story since the begining, just what is it that Bonds' alleged steroid abuse allowed him to achieve on the playing field? Did they make his swing more accurate, or was it more like allowing him to 'play through the pain' in some way and extend his career?
There's no way to know how a player's statistics are affected by steroids.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunch
Pure opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Sure it is. Why don't you school us and tell us exactly how steroids affect a player, then?
:)
And note that baseball has no specific policy that anyone convicted of a crime is automatically suspended or banned. You get suspended or banned from baseball for violating the rules of baseball, not for breaking federal or state laws.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
So you can do something that's against the law, and still play in organized baseball. For example, Ron LeFlore was convicted of armed robbery, served his time in prison, and then went on to a have a pretty successful major league career.
On the other hand, you can be suspended or banned for doing something against the rules, even if it's not against any law. Get caught throwing a spitter, and you're going to get a suspension, but you didn't break any criminal law, and the government isn't going to come after you.
As it should be. Just imagine loosing your job because you received a speeding ticket...
:eek:
From what I can tell, steroids allow two things:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunch
1. They diminish the "recovery time" after workouts with weights. After a person works out intensely with weights, the exhaustion and fatigue can reach into the next day. Steroids supposedly cut out this exhaustion and allow you to keep lifting and lifting and lifting where a normal person would have collapsed.
Supposedly, come August, after four months of long night games, dealing with the media, airplane travel and accumulated minor injuries, most players are worn out. However, since everyone else is worn out, too, no one gains an advantage. Steroids make you feel physically just like you did during Spring Training, allowing you to bring your full skills to bear against fatigued pitchers.
2. Steroids per se don't make you stronger. However, when added to a weight training regimen, you can increase muscle mass far beyond what you could have done without steroids. (See #1, above.)
If you bulk up, you might be able to add several feet to a long fly ball with your increased power. Long fly balls become home runs.
(* * *)
At least, this is what I think steroids do for a player. They don't allow him to hit the ball more frequently, because that's due to hand-eye coordination which is not changed by steroids.
--Pet