Printable View
Rice grounded into a double play once every 26 at bats. Of the top 10 players in career double plays, besides Rice, Julio Franco (GIDP every 27.8 at bats) is the only player that grounds into a double play more frequently than once every 30 at bats.
Rice had a streak of three consecutive seasons of 30+ GIDP. There have only been 14 such seasons in major league history.
I can't find any charts for all-time leaders in any GIDP rates, but Rice did have a high rate.
Define best. and Players and today. and MLB. :D
You ain't even considering the fact that Boston has fielded notoriously slow teams throughout the majority of it's history are you? Boston's been the poster boy of "load 'em up, and wait for a homer" style baseball for a very, very long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Did I say anything except that Jim Rice grounded into a lot of double plays?Quote:
Originally Posted by robinhoodnik
No, you didn't say anything....Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
My point, was that if the runners ahead of Rice were just a shade faster than the average crippled tortoise, or even just better baserunners, Rice's rate of grounding into double plays would have been quite a bit lower. The whole ground into double play stat is not a very good one, as there are far too many outside influences on that number for it to be a good indicator.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Here it is. Had to wait to get home form work before posting this, but here's some real rate numbers to consider:
Jim Rice:Code:yearID AB GIDP Rate
1933 85222 1105 0.012966136
1934 85911 968 0.011267474
1935 86437 910 0.010527899
1936 87638 1003 0.011444807
1937 85963 956 0.011121064
1938 85013 1038 0.012209897
1939 84879 1945 0.022914973
1940 86003 1825 0.02122019
1941 85854 1869 0.021769516
1942 83731 1756 0.020971922
1943 84701 1881 0.02220753
1944 85665 1853 0.021630771
1945 84447 1710 0.020249387
1946 84333 1865 0.022114712
1947 84436 1938 0.022952295
1948 84411 1934 0.022911706
1949 84380 2132 0.025266651
1950 84823 2226 0.026242882
1951 85065 2146 0.025227767
1952 84195 1966 0.023350555
1953 84997 2029 0.023871431
1954 83936 1959 0.023339211
1955 83590 1940 0.023208518
1956 83856 1984 0.023659607
1957 84906 1970 0.023202129
1958 83827 2062 0.02459828
1959 84294 1837 0.021792773
1960 84014 1914 0.022781917
1961 97032 2232 0.023002721
1962 110688 2487 0.02246856
1963 109814 2256 0.020543829
1964 110464 2394 0.021672219
1965 109739 2363 0.02153291
1966 109467 2355 0.021513333
1967 109205 2245 0.020557667
1968 108622 2217 0.02041023
1969 131287 2900 0.022089011
1970 132140 3020 0.022854548
1971 130544 3092 0.023685501
1972 124828 2797 0.022406832
1973 132363 3129 0.023639537
1974 132256 3084 0.023318413
1975 131473 3013 0.022917253
1976 131525 2910 0.022125071
1977 143974 3139 0.021802548
1978 141567 3076 0.021728228
1979 142792 3326 0.023292621
1980 144160 3363 0.023328246
1981 94467 2208 0.023373241
1982 144149 3147 0.021831577
1983 143538 3296 0.02296256
1984 143829 3193 0.022199974
1985 143075 3295 0.023029879
1986 143106 3119 0.021795033
1987 144095 3124 0.021680142
1988 142568 3087 0.021652825
1989 142821 3064 0.021453428
1990 142768 3077 0.021552449
1991 142968 3021 0.021130603
1992 142895 3109 0.021757234
1993 154995 3431 0.022136198
1994 110266 2442 0.022146446
1995 138571 3145 0.022695946
1996 156801 3609 0.023016435
1997 155438 3440 0.02213101
1998 167116 3705 0.022170229
1999 167136 3837 0.022957352
2000 167290 3893 0.023270967
2001 166234 3653 0.021975047
2002 165582 3845 0.023221123
2003 166737 3850 0.023090256
2004 167353 3784 0.022610888
2005 166335 3917 0.023548862
2006 167341 3953 0.023622424
All 8747941 191363 0.021875205
All Red Sox during Jim Rice's playing time:Code:yearID AB GIDP Rate
1974 67 2 0.029850746
1975 564 19 0.033687943
1976 581 18 0.030981067
1977 644 21 0.032608696
1978 677 15 0.022156573
1979 619 16 0.025848142
1980 504 16 0.031746032
1981 451 14 0.031042129
1982 573 29 0.05061082
1983 626 31 0.049520767
1984 657 36 0.054794521
1985 546 35 0.064102564
1986 618 19 0.030744337
1987 404 22 0.054455446
1988 485 18 0.037113402
1989 209 4 0.019138756
All 8225 315 0.038297872
He was always a bit high, but for most of his career he was only around 1% higher than the MLB average. The Red Sox were also always high and still are above average to this day, as a team. Of course, Jim's total's are in there (I could remove them, but I'm just not up to it right now, and I don't think it's that important anyway). I don't have the actual Fenway numbers (courtesy of Retrosheet) handy that I can post right at the moment, but the park average for GIDP has always been and still is a tad bit high, believe it or not.Code:yearID SumOfAB SumOfGIDP
1974 5499 128 0.023276959
1975 5448 137 0.025146843
1976 5511 127 0.023044819
1977 5510 132 0.023956443
1978 5587 135 0.024163236
1979 5538 158 0.028530155
1980 5603 151 0.026949848
1981 3820 98 0.02565445
1982 5596 171 0.030557541
1983 5590 171 0.03059034
1984 5648 148 0.026203966
1985 5720 164 0.028671329
1986 5498 142 0.025827574
1987 5586 129 0.023093448
1988 5545 139 0.025067628
1989 5666 169 0.029827038
All 87365 2299 0.026314886
The only real problem period for him, during his career, was the 1982 - 85 and 87 seasons. Coincidentally enough, those were basically his better seasons for batting average. :eek:
One thing to be real careful about here though is that these numbers are extremely susceptible to variation. Check this out: Below is Jim Rice's GIDP rate table, which I gave above. The Margin column is the standard Margin of Error for this rate, which is a straightforward calculation which shows the 95% confidence interval. What that means is that we can be sure that the "true" rate is within the range of rates between the actual observed rate both plus the Margin and minus the margin. It's calculated by: 1.96*(SQRT(Rate-(1-Rate)/Number of chances)).
so, for example, his 1986 GIDP real rate would be within the range of: [.366 - -.304]...Code:yearID AB GIDP Rate Margin (+/-)
1974 67 2 .030 .243
1975 564 19 .034 .350
1976 581 18 .031 .336
1977 644 21 .033 .346
1978 677 15 .022 .282
1979 619 16 .026 .305
1980 504 16 .032 .338
1981 451 14 .031 .333
1982 573 29 .051 .434
1983 626 31 .050 .429
1984 657 36 .055 .453
1985 546 35 .064 .490
1986 618 19 .031 .335
1987 404 22 .054 .447
1988 485 18 .037 .367
1989 209 4 .019 .236
All 8225 315 .038 .383
Obviously, that's nonsense. how can you have a negative percentage chance to hit into a double play? lol
The same is true for all individual players, though (of those few 10's of players that I've actually looked at). The important thing to recognize is that all GIDP numbers are very much driven by luck. This makes intuitive sense as well, since turning a double play relies on hitting a grounder, the opposing fielders being able to actually field the ball, and the runner ahead of the batter actually being caught. That's a lot of stuff that needs to happen, you know? That being said, it's obvious that the basic trends are meaningful.
Jim Rice did hit into many double plays. However, he played for a team that often hit into double plays. He played in a park that somehow encourages double plays. He played during a time period when more double plays were turned (...sort of). Most importantly, and I keep coming back to this, he hit with extraordinary power, especially for his time period. He was extremely consistent from year to year. And lastly, his power came from much more than Home Runs.
I'd put Jim Rice in, and I'd most certainly want him on my team.
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Coach Owens
All I said was that he grounded into a lot of double plays. I did not say anything about why, or what that means, just that he did...and well, he did.Quote:
Originally Posted by robinhoodnik
I certainly wouldn't mind him being on my team, although I don't think I'd put him in the Hall.Quote:
Originally Posted by ohms_law
There is reason to defend yourself. ;) Rice is a boardline HOF canidate. In theory that means that less than 75% of the voting members of the Baseball's Writers association thinks he should be in.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Edgar hasn't been voted apon yet, and it takes 5 years to evaluate a player.
Rice is a borderline HOF candidate - and I tend to lean towards him being on the borderline, and not in the Hall.
I agree. He should have been less vain and worn the glasses then, that he wears now. He didn't, he missed the marks, thank you Jim Rice, we love you, but you didn't quite make it. Then again there's Kirby Puckett's similar case as a precedent.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
See, that's the kind of player that I compare him to...Quote:
Then again there's Kirby Puckett's similar case as a precedent.
According to his actual similarity scores though, his most comparable players are:
1. Orlando Cepeda (911) *
2. Andres Galarraga (893)
3. Ellis Burks (882)
4. Duke Snider (882) *
5. Joe Carter (866)
6. Dave Parker (856)
7. Billy Williams (854) *
8. Moises Alou (850)
9. Willie Stargell (842) *
10. Luis Gonzalez (841)
And hey, Cepeda is in...
Moises Alou and Rice are actually very close....
.303/.369/.517 for Alou vs. .298/.352/.502 for Rice. They both have a 128 OPS+, adjusted for park and league. Alou's 50 homers short. Rice has 2 more All Star Games, plus the one MVP. They both were incredibly consistent. Both have a career high OPS+ of 157. Rice was more consistently in the top of the MVP voting (6 top 5 finishes vs. Moises' 2), but Moises did place in the top 20 6 times to Rice's 8.
And i don't know...I don't think Alou's going to get as much of a Hall of Fame following as Rice has gotten...and if Rice had played in a city that wasn't Boston, I don't think he'd be getting as much recognition as he is (nor do I think he would've even had the necessary stats to get the recognition. His OPS was over 100 points higher at Fenway than on the road.)
Rice is being "punished" for being a DH, I think (which is ****, IMHO). Alou is really more about playing in Montreal and Houston, and just not getting recognition. Yea, he played on the Cubs, but he was mostly past his peak by then, and that probably hurts some as well since he was sort of a disappointment to the Cubbies, from what I remember.
Didn't Moises Alou become involved in some sort of scandal, as well? Something about him is tickling my memory...
He was the dude that almost caught the Steve Bartman ball?
Oh yea!
lol
...actually, there was something else that's just on the edge of my memory, though. I'm almost positive it wasn't steroids, but something like that.
Ah:
That must be what I was thinking about.Quote:
Alou and Cubs reliever Kent Mercker reportedly had confrontation with Cubs announcer Steve Stone on a team flight. The Cubs refused to offer arbitration and let him go, citing numerous fights with umpires whom claimed had a vendetta against him.
Catcher:
Russell Martin
Joe Mauer
Brian McCann
1st Base:
Lance Berkman
Albert Pujols
Prince Fielder
Mark Teixera (tie with Fielder :P)
2nd Base:
Chase Utley
Brian Roberts
Jeff Kent
Short Stop
Derek Jeter
Hanley Ramierez
Jose Reyes
3rd Base:
David Wright
Alex Rodriguez
Miguel Cabrera
Left Field
Carlos Lee
Matt Holiday
Manny Ramirez
Center Field
Grady Sizemore
Ichiro Suzuki
Curtis Granderson
Right Field
Vladimir Guerrero
Alex Rios
Jeff Franceour
Designated Hitter
David Ortiz
Travis Hafner
Jim Thome
Starting Pitchers
Roy Oswalt
Josh Beckett
Johan Santana
Relief Pitcher
J.J Putz
Joe Nathan
Huston Street
Moises Alou pees on his hands, ostensibly to make the skin on his hands tougher or so I have heard, but just plain weird imo. If I ever meet the guy, ain't no way I'm shaking hands with him.
Jorge Posada does it too. I read that they do it since they both don't wear batting gloves and it helps them grip the bat better.Quote:
Originally Posted by beerchaser