Hank Steinbrenner fires back at Torre

The apple apparently doesn't fall far from the tree.

Where was Joe's career in '95 when my dad hired him? My dad was crucified for hiring him.

--Hank Steinbrenner
Hank Steinbrenner, who has begun to take control over the New York Yankees with brother Hal from their fiery father George, shot back at former manager Joe Torre's comment about the team's contract offer being an "insult."

"Where was Joe's career in '95 when my dad hired him?" Hank Steinbrenner told The New York Post. "My dad was crucified for hiring him.

"Let's not forget what my dad did in giving him that opportunity -- and the great team he was handed," Steinbrenner told the paper.

On Friday, Torre explained his reasoning for turning down the Yankees contract offer. The deal called for a one-year contract that included $3 million in incentives if the Yankees were to reach the 2008 World Series. Plus, if New York advanced to the Fall Classic, a second year would be added to the contract worth $8 million.

"I just felt the contract offer, the terms of the contract, were probably the thing I had the toughest time with -- the one year for one thing, the incentives for another thing," Torre said Friday. "I've been there 12 years and I didn't think motivation was needed."

"We knew exactly what was expected here," Torre added. "So, I just didn't think it was the right thing for me, I just didn't think it was the right thing for my players."

Hank Steinbrenner believed the Yankees' offer was fair and that Torre needed to accept some of the blame for the team's zero championships since 2000.

"You can't take credit for success when you're going good, and then not take at least some of the blame when things change," Steinbrenner told the paper. "I'm sorry he feels insulted, but that was not the intent."

Hank Steinbrenner said he was hoping Torre would agree to manage the Yankees for a 13th season.

"I sincerely wanted Joe to accept that offer," said Steinbrenner. "We all wanted him to accept it, probably me more than anybody else."

"You don't make an offer bluffing. What if he says yes?" he added. "I was hoping he'd say yes."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/s...=ESPNHeadlines

Ah, and it begins!
Gotta love the NY media.
:)

To an extent, I agree with Junior Steinbrenner ( and it pains me greatly to admit that). So many of you line up to heap praise on Torre for the 4 WS wins.....and then you claim that he isnt to blame for the lack of titles the past seven years. You cant have it both ways. Give him both...his share of credit (which I believe is minimal) for the success, and his share of blame for failure.

Again: He has had the best teams money can buy for 12 years. He won 4 championships, which I would say, should have been about what was expected. He was also being paid $7 million a year...more than any manager in history. The Steinbrenner clan evidently believe that he hasnt produced as expected the past 7 years, and thats their right. I will sum this up as follows:

1) Torre knew full well what he was getting into when the Yankees hired him. He had a mediocre manager with 3 previous teams, and appeared to be nothing special as a manager.

2) Torre is a nice guy, by all accounts. That doesnt make him a great manager. In my humble opinion, there exists zero evidence that he is a great manager. I think he's good, but thats as far as I'll go.

3) I get tired of the constant "Poor Joe" chirpings perpetuated by the media. Torre will be fine. Managers will get fired. Its not that big a deal.

Umm......let me clarify ... poor editing. Should read "He WAS a mediocre manager with 3 previous teams, and appeared to be nothing special as a manager."

Good points.

Personally, I would not have fired Joe Torre because I do think he's a great fit for the Yankees. But also, I don't praise him because he won 4 World Series. That's a great accomplishment, but I agree with you, his impact was minimal. The players did it. And likewise, his impact on the losing is minimal.

I just thik it would have been better if they sat with Joe and told him straight up they did not want him back instead of what they did. No negotiation tells me they really didn't want him back despite what they say.

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Originally Posted by RickD

I just thik it would have been better if they sat with Joe and told him straight up they did not want him back instead of what they did. No negotiation tells me they really didn't want him back despite what they say.

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exactly

Sorry, but I can't really take any criticism from Hank Steinbrenner in any way seriously. Who is he?! Some kid who's running daddy's baseball team...hasn't really done anything to EARN it, he was just handed the keys. Yeah, HE'S a guy whose baseball opinion should resonate.

lol

good point.

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Good points.

Personally, I would not have fired Joe Torre because I do think he's a great fit for the Yankees. But also, I don't praise him because he won 4 World Series. That's a great accomplishment, but I agree with you, his impact was minimal. The players did it. And likewise, his impact on the losing is minimal.

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He was not fired - he did NOT accept the offer made - it was his choice.;)

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But also, I don't praise him because he won 4 World Series. That's a great accomplishment, but I agree with you, his impact was minimal. The players did it. And likewise, his impact on the losing is minimal.

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It will be interesting to see next year the "minimalist" impact of managers on baseball though,unlike you I believe that managers' have a large impact on the results of a game & thus the season.

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Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX

He was not fired - he did NOT accept the offer made - it was his choice.;)

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I would have not lowballed him for the sole purpose of making him seem like the guy at fault. I would have resigned him. Whatever. You get the point.

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It will be interesting to see next year the "minimalist" impact of managers on baseball though,unlike you I believe that managers' have a large impact on the results of a game & thus the season.

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Unfortunately, if Rivera, Pettite, Posada, and A-Rod all leave, the Yankees are going to do worse, and than everybody's going to say "See! Joe Torre should've stayed! The Yankees suck without him!" - completely ignoring the fact that the Yankees no longer have the best player in the league, a great catcher, the greatest closer of all time, and a good pitcher.

If the Yankees undergo significant roster changes, there's no way to at all tell what Joe Torre's impact on winning/losing was. Even if they stay relatively the same, comparing win-loss record after next season to Torre's reign still says nothing. Jorge Posada is unlikely to repeat his career year. Other players will outperform expectations. Others will play worse than they did this year. All things unrelated to the manager.

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I would have not lowballed him for the sole purpose of making him seem like the guy at fault. I would have resigned him. Whatever. You get the point.

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Yes I did get the point (that is why I ;) -ed,btw) but the facts are 1) he was given an offer of 5 million for 1 year * & 2) he REFUSED ipso facto/thus he was not fired.

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Unfortunately, if Rivera, Pettite, Posada, and A-Rod all leave, the Yankees are going to do worse, and than everybody's going to say "See! Joe Torre should've stayed! The Yankees suck without him!" - completely ignoring the fact that the Yankees no longer have the best player in the league, a great catcher, the greatest closer of all time, and a good pitcher.

If the Yankees undergo significant roster changes, there's no way to at all tell what Joe Torre's impact on winning/losing was. Even if they stay relatively the same, comparing win-loss record after next season to Torre's reign still says nothing. Jorge Posada is unlikely to repeat his career year. Other players will outperform expectations. Others will play worse than they did this year. All things unrelated to the manager.

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This is all hypothetical & totally subjective AS OF TODAY.The point I made was in reply to the "minimalistic" view of the role of the manager made here:

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. That's a great accomplishment, but I agree with you, his impact was minimal. The players did it. And likewise, his impact on the losing is minimal.

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my reply:

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Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX

It will be interesting to see next year the "minimalist" impact of managers on baseball though,unlike you I believe that managers' have a large impact on the results of a game & thus the season.

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* & he would still have been the HIGHEST paid manager in Baseball

Well the impact Torre had came not just in coaching but in class. He was well liked by his plaers and that can't be duplicated. Losing Torre will cause a wave of changes and only time will tell if the Yanks made a bone-head decision which is what I believe they did.

I think the Yanks should have waited a month or so to see if cooler heads prevail, and if any minds change. They actually did that at least once before with Torre IIRC. But nobody's ever accused Steinbrenner of having too much patience.

Lol

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Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX

This is all hypothetical & totally subjective AS OF TODAY.

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Hence my use of the word "if."

Sorry for not cutting off the quote shorter. I was only replying to the "interesting to see next year" part of the phrase. I'm not getting into an argument on managerial effect on wins and losses.

You've gotta keep in mind, Bill Murray has a piece of this team. Brockton Rox.

Well the Yanks have interviewed Girardi and Mattingly is up tomorrow and then Pena. I would say out of those I would like to see Girardi as manager. Also Guidry may be on the way out as pitching coach which I think is also a sucky idea....

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Originally Posted by robinhoodnik

You've gotta keep in mind, Bill Murray has a piece of this team. Brockton Rox.

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I would be interested in buying a piece (a small piece) of a minor league team if the right opportunity came along. And no, that's not a joke ohms.

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Originally Posted by RickD

Well the Yanks have interviewed Girardi and Mattingly is up tomorrow and then Pena. I would say out of those I would like to see Girardi as manager. Also Guidry may be on the way out as pitching coach which I think is also a sucky idea....

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The "baby" Steinbrenners' & Cashman,IMO,want to set up a "new Yankees" system where they are the real "power holders" & deciders.The best way for that to happen,in their opinion,is to remove the traits of the "old guard"....

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Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX

The "baby" Steinbrenners' & Cashman,IMO,want to set up a "new Yankees" system where they are the real "power holders" & deciders.The best way for that to happen,in their opinion,is to remove the traits of the "old guard"....

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I am thinking that they are going to re-do there whole team...but based on the talent available, they might be better off keeping the talent they to make a run.

It isn't like the 03 Mariners-04 mariners, where both teams were indentical, but one team won 90 games and one team lost 90 games....

just because they were one year older. I think the yankees have one more year to go for a run before they have to retool.

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Originally Posted by boomboom

I am thinking that they are going to re-do there whole team...but based on the talent available, they might be better off keeping the talent they to make a run.

It isn't like the 03 Mariners-04 mariners, where both teams were indentical, but one team won 90 games and one team lost 90 games....

just because they were one year older. I think the yankees have one more year to go for a run before they have to retool.

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Agreed but that is why I said letting go Guidry,Torre,Clemens etc is a "shift" away from "George's Yankees",IMO.

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Originally Posted by boomboom

I think the yankees have one more year to go for a run before they have to retool.

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Absolutely. Bring back Posada, Rivera, and A-Rod and you have essentially the team that had the best record in baseball since the All Star break -- and no reason to really think that any of the key players has suddenly gone over the hill. With the addition and maturation then of young pitchers like Hughes, Chamberlain, and Kennedy you have a good chance of fielding an even stronger team. "Retooling" doesn't really make sense at this point considering the core that's already there.

I think if the Yanks go with Girardi that is a sign they plan to "go young" very quickly. Girardi has made himself a reputation as being an "in your face" type which may work fine with guys like Chamberlain, Hughes, Cano, etc. but likely would not be welcome with the older guys/bigger egos on the team.

If they go with Mattingly, it's more likely you'll see Posada, Rivera, etc. come back.

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Originally Posted by beerchaser

I think if the Yanks go with Girardi that is a sign they plan to "go young" very quickly. Girardi has made himself a reputation as being an "in your face" type which may work fine with guys like Chamberlain, Hughes, Cano, etc. but likely would not be welcome with the older guys/bigger egos on the team.

If they go with Mattingly, it's more likely you'll see Posada, Rivera, etc. come back.

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Both would be in all intenses "rookies" (I know Girardi has 1 season of Marlins management) & thus easier to control,than a La Russa/Torre.

Cashman (& from what has been published on Hank) are fans of "build from within" model which is the exact opposite of what Big George did in his tenure as Boss.

This transition has already started under Torre with the use of Cano & Cabrera,but Torre was known to favour "his players" & thus limited his use of rookies.

Well it could be the pups want to put their stamp on daddy's team. The pipsqueaks with probably even do away with Old-Timer's Day!

I don't know, If they keep that team together, that team would have a chance to go after the Mariners/Cubs All-time Season Win record.

I really think that young pitching will carry them..if they can get some young relief pitching and moves hughes and chamberlin into the starting 5....man...that team would be awesome.

Yea, pitching has been their one glaring weakness for 4-5 years now, really. People always talk about hitting with the Yankees, but when they won it was because of their pitching.
1996:
Pettite (young), Key, Rodgers, Gooden, Cone, with Wetteland, Nelson, and Rivera in the bullpan.

1997:
remove Key, add Wells, and Rivera, Nelson and Stanton in the bullpen.
(they finished out of the playoffs, but they made a heck of a run for it that year)

1998:
Pettite, Cone, Wells, Irabu, Hernandez, with Rivera, Stanton, Lloyd in the bullpen

1999:
Hernandez, Cone, Pettite, Clemens, Irabu, with Rivera, Stanton, and Grimsley in the bullpen

I mean, that's a far cry from 2007:
Pettitte (at 35 years old), Wang, Mussina, Clements (part time, at 44!), Hughes, Igawa, etc..., with Luis Vizcaino and Kyle Farnsworth backing up Rivera.
It's just not the same.

Well I think Clemens, Pavano, Igawa were all bad decisions and I thought that before they started playing the season. Mussina I would say bye-bye to as well.