Re: Jackie Robinson overrated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jcbarr
Code:
Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
162 Game Avg 618 103 185 34 5 14 77 32 8 70 78 .300 .371 .443 116 274 10 7 4 3 14
162 Game Avg 572 111 178 32 6 16 86 23 4 87 34 .311 .409 .474 132 271 12 1 1 8 13
Pretty darn close between Robbie and Jackie. I guess that means Alomar was one of the greatest to every play the game?
Keep in mind that is a 162 game average which I think is far better to look at than the career numbers.
Another thing to keep in mind Jackie was far from the best player in the Negro Leagues at the time. He just had the personality that would fit best in the MLB world.
The one key piece missing from this analysis is factoring in the eras that the two players played in. Baseball Reference has started making "neutralized" stats available now, which is a better place to start from:
Code:
Year G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB Avg OBP SLG OPS RC
Robinson 162 566 106 172 31 6 15 82 85 34 22 .305 .402 .463 .865 104
Alomar 162 615 100 183 34 5 14 74 69 77 32 .297 .368 .438 .806 100
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maxpower
If the general consensus was "Jackie Robinson was far and away the best baseball player ever", then I would agree he would be overrated. I haven't heard anyone say that. The media has gone on and on about him recently, but I think the focus was more on the social significance of his accomplishments, and not just the baseball. I don't think his importance socially has been overrated, at least not by anything I've seen or read.
That's the real point here. Robinson isn't really great because of his playing skills at all. That gave him the opportunity to be great, and he was a very good player, but his playing skills are not why he's a HOF'er.
Re: Jackie Robinson overrated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ohms_law
That's the real point here. Robinson isn't really great because of his playing skills at all. That gave him the opportunity to be great, and he was a very good player, but his playing skills are not why he's a HOF'er.
It's definitely part of it. I mean, if he broke the color barrier, yet played like Mario Mendoza, I'm not so sure he'd be an actual member of the Hall of Fame...I'm sure he'd be honored likewise, but yeah. It can't be said for sure though.
Re: Jackie Robinson overrated
Well... his playing ability allowed him to actually have the opportunity to play at all, you know? His performance is very good. It's just, that was hardly the primary motivation to induct him into the Hall Of Fame. For most voters, I'm sure that his actual performance wasn't even a consideration. It was good enough for him to be remembered as a great player, and considering the time period that he played in and the fact that he did break the color barrier he really did play awesome. Look at those transformed numbers!
Re: Jackie Robinson overrated
I don't think anyone can argue his merits as a man, I just think it is conceivable that his actual skill on the field may be overrated.
He was a great man, player and one of the most important things to ever happen to baseball. Those are three things that can and always will be said about him.
Re: Jackie Robinson overrated
Well, his skills on the field are what they are. There are stats...
*shrug*
This thread was started under the pretext that Mogul somehow overrates Robinson in particular. Since Mogul bases (admittedly, somewhat loosely) ratings in game from the actual player stats, that's a patently absurd notion.
What's the expression that the OOTP community uses again, "Mogul doesn't know names."? Something like that. The game loads the stats (including the player's name) and creates an in game player based on those stats. There are no special circumstances, you know?
Re: Jackie Robinson overrated
Makes plenty of sense to me. I haven't checked him in the game but I would be inclined to say that he is rated very fairly compared to other players with similar stats.
Re: Jackie Robinson overrated
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jcbarr
Makes plenty of sense to me. I haven't checked him in the game but I would be inclined to say that he is rated very fairly compared to other players with similar stats.
Jackie Robinson 1952 in Mogul - 89 (90 contact, 77 power, 81 speed, 89 eye, 80 arm, 91 range, 76 fielding, 88 health)
Roberto Alomar, at the same stage of his career (6th season) 1993 - 92/95 (93 contact, 78 power, 85 speed, 84 eye, 84 arm, 91 range, 80 fielding, 91 health)
Re: Jackie Robinson overrated
That'll differ between instances of each game as well though. It's probably fairly representative of what you'll usually see, however. Mogul isn't really perfect when it comes to dealing with historic players who didn't spend their entire careers playing MLB baseball, you know?
Re: Jackie Robinson overrated
i know :D
Jackie Robinson also played in the negro leagues, and was in WWII..so some of his stats were lost. But for 10 years, he played some of the best 2nd base in the history of MLB. His career stats fall short and if it wasn't for the negro-leagues and WWII, then he would probably have stats to pile up....
His 10 years were not from 23-33, but rather 27-37, or something like that. And if you compare the eras, Jackie was a better player then Alomar, what Alomar has in his favor is more career stats...Jackie wasn't overated, but nobody has ever said he was the greatest player to ever live. THat would belong to Ruth, Cobb, and Williams. And if Williams never had to go to war, he would probably be concidered the best hitter ever, not just one of the best.
I have never heard of Jackie Robinson being concidered the greatest player ever lived, nor have I ever heard of him being concidered anything less than good until I read this thread... Jackie was one of the best 2nd baseman of all time. And if I were to select a 2nd baseman from any era, he would be in my top 5. Now I wonder how many 2nd baseman have ever played this game....my guess is 100,000 of thousands....since 1876...he he would be in my top 5, and others top 10.
A lot of people discount Jackie's Eye. He could walk, and walks and he didn't strike out that often. That might be cause of the era he played in and the game is played differently, but Alomar didn't have the eye, and Alomar based on his stats verses era, are not that glamorous.
If jackie played in a different era, or if he were white with the same skill set. He would have *probably* put up Alomar career stats, and probably better...also, if Jackie didn't have to deal with the War...it would even be more....but what we can assume doesn't always come true.
Jackie Robinson in the context of when he played. He was the best 2nd baseman of his time while he played. That is why he is in the HOF.
you know? :D
(sorry the you know is a jab at ohms cause he uses the that phrase a lot) :p
Re: Jackie Robinson overrated
Yea, I can't help it for whatever reason. Just a mannerism of mine that I picked up somewhere along the line...
*shrug*
Re: Jackie Robinson overrated
*un-shrug* you know :D : D :D
just joking ohms :)
Re: Jackie Robinson overrated
Re: Jackie Robinson overrated
No argument here on over rating or not for #42. Just some facts. Robinson actually came up in 1947 and played exclusively at first base that season. He moved to second base in 148 and was the Dodger regular there through 1952, five years. In those six years as a regular he played in over 140+ games a season. In 1953 and 54 he was primarily an outfielder and playing time greatly reduced (136 in '53, 118 in '54). In '55 he was the regular thirdbaseman, but played in only 96 games. In his final year, 1956,at age 37, he was a reserve playing in 105 games, mostly at third.
We all agree that he had a relatively short career (not of his choosing) with above average statistics. His election ot the HOF was not based on his player "body of work", but on his contribution (and that of Dodger GM Branch Rickey) to the future of the game.
By the way, Robinson was not the first "black" player in major league baseball. That distinction goes to the brother Fleet and Welday Walker, who played for Toledo in the 1884 American Association that was considered a "major" league at that time.
By coinsidence, Hank Thompson, became the second black player in the American League (behind Larry Doby of the Indians) when he and Wendall Brown joined the St. Louis Browns in 1947, and was the first black to play for the Dodgers cross town rivals, the New York Giants when he joined the team in 1949.
Re: Jackie Robinson overrated
Quote:
By the way, Robinson was not the first "black" player in major league baseball. That distinction goes to the brother Fleet and Welday Walker, who played for Toledo in the 1884 American Association that was considered a "major" league at that time.
He was the first black player to break actual segregation...
Re: Jackie Robinson overrated
There was no segregation law in the MLB, so you can't actually say that.
