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Well, the 150 OPS+ in 1970 would be better when compared tio the rest of the player's league than a 140 OPS+ compared to the rest of the league in 2001. Like my Wagner/Pujols example, Pujols had a BETTER season, but when compared to the league, it was the same..Quote:
Originally Posted by ohms_law
The only way to meaningfully compare OPS+ values for players seasons in differing leagues or years is to adjust the 100 OPS+ value for both (or all) of the players involved. Using your example of Pujols 2005 vs. Yastremski 1970:
Yas 1970: lgOPS .747| 178 OPS+
Pujols 2005: lgOPS .773| 167 OPS+
If you take those values, you can cross multiply and divide them to find the OPS+ of one player in relation to the other... I think.
If you move Yas into Pujol's 2005 world: (.773*178/.747) you get yas's new OPS+ of 184, which is now based on the .773 leage average, vs. the .747 league average of 1970.
I'm not sure I did that right, but I think it is... It illustrates the point well though, that you've gotta be real careful comparing OPS+ values. What's better or worse between seasons and leagues varies, and it's not always obvious which value is better or worse just by looking at them. It's the same thing as asking which value is greater: 3/5ths or 7/12ths.
Here's some more numbers
Stan Musial 2.803
Ted Williams 2.593
Tony Gwynn 2.622
Babe Ruth 1.666
Barry Bonds 1.299
Cal Ripken 1.298
Rod Carew 0.987
Jim Rice 1.019
Dwight Evans 0.815
Fred Lynn 0.995
This is RBI per K's. Basically every out they made at the plate vs. runs driven in.
If they're striking out, they're usually not driving in runs and thus hurting the team.
The ultimate in useless power, Dave Kingman. 0.666 rbi per strikeout.
Bobby Bonds' 0.582 is kinda depressing too.
Dawson comes out pretty good though...
1.054 Better than Rice :)
heh, that's an interesting metric.
:)
Well, I don't feel like thinking enough to figure out if you did that right or not, but it's besides the point. OPS+ by itself is a simple, quick, decent way to compare two players based on how they fared relative to their league and park. It's by no means definitive, but there IS no definitive stat.Quote:
Originally Posted by ohms_law
It would have been the same without a strike. Bagwell's hand was broken by a pitch just days before the strike began.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Some even argue that the strike saved his MVP. If Matt Williams had continued on his home run tear or somebody came up big during the September stretch run, an inactive Bagwell might not have won the award.
Admittedly, Bagwell was having one otherworldly season up to that point. He crushed the franchise records for home runs in a season (previously 37), RBIs in a season (previously 108) and batting average (previously .333), all by the first week of AUGUST!
Ah didn't know that.Quote:
Originally Posted by TexanBob
Thanks!
Here's another "metric" I've been fooling with. K-ER/IP*9
Randy Johnson: 4544 K's - 1357 ER = (pitcher put outs, minus runs allowed) 3187 put outs. / by 3798.7 (IP) = 0.838 outs per inning average * 9 = 7.542 outs per game average.
R. Johnson = 7.542 OPG
N. Ryan = 6.354 OPG
R. Clemens = 5.499 OPG
T. Seaver = 4.446 OPG
B. Blyleven = 3.384 OPG
W. Johnson = 3.186 OPG
Yes, I know that pitchers aren't the sole reason for ER, but they're charged with them.
My favorite pitching metric:
Overall K%/Walk%/BIP%, all figured against batters faced.
K%: SO/BFP
Walk%: (BB+HPB+IBB)/BFP
BIP%: (BFP-everything above)/BFP
Top 20 starting pitchers (>5 innings per game), sorted by lowest BIP%:
Top 20 relief pitchers (<5 innings per game, minimum 10 games), sorted by lowest BIP%:Code:nameFirst nameLast yearID Kpct BBPct BIPPct
Kerry Wood 1998 0.333 0.139 0.528
Randy Johnson 2001 0.374 0.092 0.534
Herb Score 1957 0.260 0.193 0.547
Bobby Witt 1987 0.238 0.214 0.548
Randy Johnson 1997 0.342 0.105 0.553
Randy Johnson 1998 0.353 0.091 0.556
Nolan Ryan 1977 0.268 0.173 0.559
Kerry Wood 2003 0.300 0.139 0.561
Randy Johnson 1992 0.261 0.177 0.562
Kerry Wood 2001 0.293 0.142 0.565
Bobby Witt 1986 0.235 0.200 0.565
Nolan Ryan 1972 0.285 0.148 0.567
Nolan Ryan 1976 0.273 0.159 0.568
Pedro Martinez 1999 0.375 0.056 0.569
Randy Johnson 2000 0.347 0.083 0.570
Randy Johnson 1995 0.339 0.083 0.577
Sam McDowell 1965 0.291 0.130 0.579
Nolan Ryan 1974 0.264 0.154 0.583
Sam McDowell 1966 0.279 0.138 0.583
Nolan Ryan 1989 0.305 0.111 0.584
Code:nameFirst nameLast yearID Kpct BBPct BIPPct
Rob Dibble 1995 0.205 0.410 0.385
Jonathan Broxton 2005 0.324 0.221 0.456
Kane Davis 2002 0.343 0.200 0.457
Ryne Duren 1960 0.293 0.249 0.459
Matt Mantei 1996 0.281 0.258 0.461
Brad Lidge 2004 0.425 0.111 0.463
Byung-Hyun Kim 2000 0.347 0.188 0.466
Robert Person 1999 0.200 0.333 0.467
Eric Gagne 2003 0.448 0.082 0.471
John Rocker 2000 0.307 0.215 0.478
Billy Wagner 1999 0.434 0.087 0.479
Joey Eischen 2006 0.217 0.301 0.482
Dan Plesac 2001 0.358 0.158 0.484
Jeff Nelson 2001 0.322 0.187 0.491
Rob Dibble 1992 0.385 0.122 0.493
Billy Wagner 1997 0.383 0.123 0.495
Mitch Williams 1987 0.275 0.230 0.495
Armando Benitez 1997 0.345 0.160 0.495
Dan McGinn 1968 0.267 0.233 0.500
Jeff Sparks 2000 0.267 0.233 0.500
my list:Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
• Tony Gwynn (1)
• Mark McGwire (1)
• Cal Ripken (1)
• Lee Smith (5)
• Alan Trammell (6)
• Rich Gossage (8)
• Bert Blyleven (10)
in the next handful of years for me:
Bagwell is a no-brainer and Alomar, Raines, and Henderson are in. Barry Larkin and Edgar Martinez are my picks to be the next Dawson and Rice.
I was playing around with hated access, and came up with a report of players NOT in, or elligible to go in to the HOF. When looking at the pitchers, again especially considering what the elligible pitching is like the next couple years, I really wonder if the Veterans committee shouldn't induct a couple of these guy's. Bobby Mathews in particular, though even Mulane might be good as they seem to be the last two of the great 19th century pitchers not in the Hall already.
Code:Name bats throws First Last Years W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP ERA H R ER HR BB SO HBP WP BK IBB
Jim Kaat L L 1959 1983 25 283 237 898 625 180 31 102 18 4530 1/3 3.45 4620 2038 1738 395 1083 2461 122 128 6 116
Tony Mullane B R 1881 1894 14 284 220 555 504 468 30 52 15 4531 1/3 3.05 4195 2523 1537 98 1408 1803 82 165 1
Frank Tanana L L 1973 1993 21 240 236 638 616 143 34 10 1 4188 1/3 3.66 4063 1910 1704 448 1255 2773 129 119 27 116
Bobby Mathews R R 1871 1887 17 297 248 578 568 525 19 8 3 4956 1/3 2.89 5591 3497 1591 69 533 1366 48 94 2
Charlie Hough R R 1970 1994 25 216 216 858 440 107 13 240 61 3801 1/3 3.75 3283 1807 1582 383 1665 2362 174 179 42 44
Mickey Lolich B L 1963 1979 17 217 191 586 496 195 41 40 11 3638 1/3 3.44 3366 1537 1390 347 1099 2832 92 124 8 67
Jerry Koosman R L 1967 1985 19 222 209 612 527 140 33 43 17 3839 1/3 3.36 3635 1608 1433 290 1198 2556 71 89 29 121
Luis Tiant R R 1964 1982 19 229 172 573 484 187 49 51 15 3486 1/3 3.30 3075 1400 1280 346 1104 2416 49 27 4 53
Dennis Martinez R R 1976 1998 23 245 193 692 562 122 30 51 8 3999 2/3 3.70 3897 1835 1643 372 1165 2149 122 89 30 71
Jim McCormick R R 1878 1887 10 265 214 492 485 466 33 6 1 4275 2/3 2.43 4092 2095 1155 84 749 1704 12 157 0
Gus Weyhing R R 1887 1901 15 264 232 538 503 448 28 35 4 4324 1/3 3.89 4562 2788 1867 120 1566 1665 109 130 2
Jack Quinn R R 1909 1933 25 247 218 756 444 243 28 216 57 3920 1/3 3.29 4238 1835 1433 102 860 1329 94 59 5
Jack Powell R R 1897 1912 16 245 254 578 516 422 46 57 15 4389 2.97 4319 1991 1450 110 1021 1621 121 72 2
Billy Pierce L L 1945 1964 20 211 169 585 432 193 38 84 32 3306 2/3 3.27 2989 1325 1201 284 1178 1999 30 48 10 35
Bobo Newsom R R 1929 1953 25 211 222 600 483 246 31 71 21 3759 1/3 3.98 3769 1908 1664 206 1732 2082 61 60 7
Jerry Reuss L L 1969 1990 22 220 191 628 547 127 39 41 11 3669 2/3 3.64 3734 1700 1483 245 1127 1907 59 107 23 118
C. Buffinton R R 1882 1892 11 233 152 414 396 351 30 17 3 3404 2.96 3344 1824 1120 87 856 1700 20 154 2
Vida Blue B L 1969 1986 18 209 161 502 473 143 37 11 2 3343 1/3 3.27 2939 1357 1213 263 1185 2175 23 103 13 61
Rick Reuschel R R 1972 1991 20 214 191 557 529 102 26 16 5 3548 1/3 3.37 3588 1494 1330 221 935 2015 88 89 10 117
Joe Niekro R R 1967 1988 22 221 204 702 500 107 29 93 16 3584 3.59 3466 1620 1431 276 1262 1747 65 172 8 71
Bob Welch R R 1978 1994 17 211 146 506 462 61 28 20 8 3092 3.47 2894 1310 1191 267 1034 1969 79 55 45 60
Paul Derringer R R 1931 1945 15 223 212 579 445 251 32 98 29 3645 3.46 3912 1652 1401 158 761 1507 32 50 2
Dwight Gooden R R 1984 2000 17 194 112 430 410 68 24 4 3 2800 2/3 3.51 2564 1198 1091 210 954 2293 78 76 33 42
Orel Hershiser R R 1983 2000 18 204 150 510 466 68 25 19 5 3130 1/3 3.48 2939 1366 1211 235 1007 2014 117 121 23 108
George Mullin R R 1902 1915 14 228 196 487 428 353 35 50 8 3686 2/3 2.82 3518 1636 1156 42 1238 1482 131 85 2
Sam Jones R R 1914 1935 22 229 217 647 487 250 36 115 31 3883 3.84 4084 2007 1656 152 1396 1223 68 73 5
Mark Langston R L 1984 1999 16 179 158 457 428 81 18 3 0 2962 2/3 3.97 2723 1438 1306 311 1289 2464 46 89 22 34
Hooks Dauss R R 1912 1926 15 222 182 538 388 245 22 121 40 3390 2/3 3.30 3407 1599 1245 87 1067 1201 121 48 4
Jeff Reardon R R 1979 1994 16 73 77 880 0 0 0 695 367 1132 1/3 3.16 1000 426 397 109 358 877 27 20 4 65
Jim Perry B R 1959 1975 17 215 174 630 447 109 32 64 10 3285 2/3 3.45 3127 1407 1258 308 998 1576 80 55 3 93
There are certainly a bunch of good pitchers in that list. The thing about Matthews is, he's a 19th century pitcher. Compared to other pitchers of the time, he doesn't exactly stack up favorably. For players from that time period, with all the rules differences and whatnot, that's a vital component to evaluating him don't you think?
I notice Kaat, Vida Blue, Neikro, Orel, and Gooden on that list. I'm not sure that I'd actually induct any of them though. Kaat probably, isn't he one of the winningest lefties in the history of the game or something?
Batters
Code:Name bats throws First Last Years G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG TB SH SF IBB HBP GIDP
Pete Rose B R 1963 1986 24 3562 14053 2165 4256 746 135 160 1314 198 149 1566 1143 .303 .377 .409 5752 56 79 167 107 247
Dwight Evans R R 1972 1991 20 2606 8996 1470 2446 483 73 385 1384 78 59 1391 1697 .272 .373 .470 4230 52 77 60 53 227
Rusty Staub L R 1963 1985 23 2951 9720 1189 2716 499 47 292 1466 47 33 1255 888 .279 .366 .431 4185 56 119 193 79 297
Vada Pinson L L 1958 1975 18 2469 9645 1366 2757 485 127 256 1170 305 122 574 1196 .286 .330 .442 4264 52 78 69 54 164
Darrell Evans L R 1969 1989 21 2687 8973 1344 2223 329 36 414 1354 98 68 1605 1410 .248 .364 .431 3866 34 90 141 35 133
Chili Davis B R 1981 1999 19 2436 8673 1240 2380 424 30 350 1372 142 98 1194 1698 .274 .363 .451 3914 20 94 188 15 232
Al Oliver L L 1968 1985 18 2368 9049 1189 2743 529 77 219 1326 84 64 535 756 .303 .348 .451 4083 17 95 119 82 254
Joe Carter R R 1983 1998 16 2189 8422 1170 2184 432 53 396 1445 231 66 527 1387 .259 .310 .464 3910 10 105 86 90 132
Ron Santo R R 1960 1974 15 2243 8143 1138 2254 365 67 342 1331 35 41 1108 1343 .277 .366 .464 3779 13 94 94 38 256
Graig Nettles L R 1967 1988 22 2700 8986 1193 2225 328 28 390 1314 32 36 1088 1209 .248 .332 .421 3779 12 90 94 50 197
Lou Whitaker L R 1977 1995 19 2390 8570 1386 2369 420 65 244 1084 143 75 1197 1099 .276 .366 .426 3651 89 91 79 20 143
Mickey Vernon L L 1939 1960 22 2409 8731 1196 2495 490 120 172 1311 137 90 955 869 .286 .359 .428 3741 80 19 22 49 183
Willie Davis L L 1960 1979 20 2429 9174 1217 2561 395 138 182 1053 398 131 418 977 .279 .314 .412 3778 83 96 75 51 128
Gary Gaetti R R 1981 2000 20 2507 8951 1130 2280 443 39 360 1341 96 65 634 1602 .255 .311 .434 3881 32 104 57 96 236
Don Baylor R R 1970 1988 19 2292 8198 1236 2135 366 28 338 1276 285 120 805 1069 .260 .346 .436 3571 16 115 91 267 196
Jose Canseco R R 1985 2001 17 1887 7057 1186 1877 340 14 462 1407 200 88 906 1942 .266 .356 .515 3631 1 81 64 84 178
Ted Simmons B R 1968 1988 21 2456 8680 1074 2472 483 47 248 1389 21 33 855 694 .285 .352 .437 3793 11 100 188 39 287
Bill Buckner L L 1969 1990 22 2517 9397 1077 2715 498 49 174 1208 183 73 450 453 .289 .324 .408 3833 47 97 111 42 247
Bobby Bonds R R 1968 1981 14 1849 7043 1258 1886 302 66 332 1024 461 169 914 1757 .268 .356 .471 3316 16 64 75 53 107
Bob Johnson R R 1933 1945 13 1863 6920 1239 2051 396 95 288 1283 96 64 1075 851 .296 .393 .506 3501 28 24 102
Will Clark L L 1986 2000 15 1976 7173 1186 2176 440 47 284 1205 67 48 937 1190 .303 .388 .497 3562 13 101 155 59 100
Buddy Bell R R 1972 1989 18 2405 8995 1151 2514 425 56 201 1106 55 79 836 776 .279 .343 .406 3654 60 80 84 38 255
Brian Downing R R 1973 1992 20 2344 7853 1188 2099 360 28 275 1073 50 44 1197 1127 .267 .373 .425 3340 60 70 55 129 197
Joe Torre R R 1960 1977 18 2209 7874 996 2342 344 59 252 1185 23 29 779 1094 .297 .367 .452 3560 13 50 127 85 284
Cesar Cedeno R R 1970 1986 17 2006 7310 1084 2087 436 60 199 976 550 179 664 938 .285 .350 .443 3240 32 71 83 56 167
Paul O'Neill L L 1985 2001 17 2053 7318 1041 2105 451 21 281 1269 141 73 892 1166 .288 .367 .470 3441 7 90 107 22 221
Brett Butler L L 1981 1997 17 2213 8180 1359 2375 277 131 54 578 558 257 1129 907 .290 .379 .376 3076 147 51 23 38 62
Jose Cruz L L 1970 1988 19 2353 7917 1036 2251 391 94 165 1077 317 136 898 1031 .284 .358 .420 3325 27 82 142 7 119
Reggie Smith B R 1966 1982 17 1987 7033 1123 2020 363 57 314 1092 137 86 890 1030 .287 .370 .489 3439 8 86 115 33 150
Dick Allen R R 1963 1977 15 1749 6332 1099 1848 320 79 351 1119 133 52 894 1556 .292 .381 .534 3379 19 53 138 16 164
Jack Clark R R 1975 1992 18 1994 6847 1118 1826 332 39 340 1180 77 61 1262 1441 .267 .383 .476 3256 9 83 127 24 174
Bobby Bonilla B R 1986 2001 16 2113 7213 1084 2010 408 61 287 1173 45 57 912 1204 .279 .362 .472 3401 5 97 128 28 169
Norm Cash L L 1958 1974 17 2089 6705 1046 1820 241 41 377 1103 43 30 1043 1091 .271 .377 .488 3274 17 55 112 90 139
Ken Boyer R R 1955 1969 15 2034 7455 1104 2143 318 68 282 1141 105 77 713 1017 .287 .351 .462 3443 17 63 97 20 185
Joe Kuhel L L 1930 1947 18 2104 7984 1236 2212 412 111 131 1049 178 90 980 612 .277 .359 .406 3239 92 39 74
Fred Lynn L L 1974 1990 17 1969 6925 1063 1960 388 43 306 1111 72 54 857 1116 .283 .364 .484 3352 25 86 77 30 149
Keith Hernandez L L 1974 1990 17 2088 7370 1124 2182 426 60 162 1071 98 63 1070 1012 .296 .388 .436 3214 10 71 130 32 161
Lee May R R 1965 1982 18 2071 7609 959 2031 340 31 354 1244 39 35 487 1570 .267 .315 .459 3495 9 65 85 49 219
Bert Campaneris R R 1964 1983 20 2328 8684 1181 2249 313 86 79 646 649 199 618 1142 .259 .313 .342 2971 199 60 15 64 106
Ken Singleton B R 1970 1984 15 2082 7189 985 2029 317 25 246 1065 21 36 1263 1246 .282 .391 .436 3134 29 60 125 17 248
George Foster R R 1969 1986 18 1977 7023 986 1925 307 47 348 1239 51 31 666 1419 .274 .341 .480 3370 3 68 106 52 196
Amos Otis R R 1967 1984 18 1998 7299 1092 2020 374 66 193 1007 341 93 757 1008 .277 .347 .425 3105 54 103 53 33 158
Doc Cramer L R 1929 1948 20 2239 9140 1357 2705 396 109 37 842 62 73 572 345 .296 .340 .375 3430 180 41 99
Gary Matthews R R 1972 1987 16 2033 7147 1083 2011 319 51 234 978 183 74 940 1125 .281 .367 .439 3134 19 62 46 21 179
Ron Cey R R 1971 1987 17 2073 7162 977 1868 328 21 316 1139 24 29 1012 1235 .261 .357 .445 3186 26 82 117 62 185
Tim Wallach R R 1980 1996 17 2212 8099 908 2085 432 36 260 1125 51 66 649 1307 .257 .319 .416 3369 6 77 89 77 192
Albert Belle R R 1989 2000 12 1539 5853 974 1726 389 21 381 1239 88 41 683 961 .295 .374 .564 3300 4 78 91 55 193
Tony Phillips B R 1982 1999 18 2161 7617 1300 2023 360 50 160 819 177 114 1319 1499 .266 .377 .389 2963 69 63 44 42 127
Cecil Cooper L L 1971 1987 17 1896 7349 1012 2192 415 47 241 1125 89 49 448 911 .298 .340 .466 3424 46 79 79 17 150
Jimmie Dykes R R 1918 1939 22 2282 8046 1108 2256 453 90 108 1071 70 55 958 850 .280 .365 .399 3213 228 115 0
Normally yes, and he does actually stack up very well against other pitchers of his day. Some HOF pitchers out class him, but then Babe Ruth outclasses pretty much everyone not name Barry Bonds... that doesn't mean we have a 2 man HOF :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ohms_law
The winningest Pitcher not in the HOF, only 3 shy of 300. That's good enough for me. And strictly from a historical stand point I think it makes sense to recognize someone from that period simply to shed some light on that age that is becoming somewhat forgotten.
Compare and tell me that he is totally out-classed?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mathebo01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/radboch01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/welchmi01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/galvipu01.shtml
Humm, interesting. I admit that I hage a hard time judging 19th century stats in general, since they are so different. When the definition of a walk changes...
;)
Anyway, I think that it's instructive to look at some of their 162 game average numbers:
I always tend to focus on H & HR, BB and SO. They are all very similar, especially Pud Galvin (what a name! :)). I'll buy it.Code:Name W L G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP WP BFP IBB BK ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP
Bobby Matthews 17 14 34 33 31 1 0 0 294 331 207 94 4 31 81 2 5 707 0 0 2.89 3.09 107 1.236
Charley Radbourn 20 12 34 33 32 2 1 0 299 285 150 88 7 57 120 3 14 1247 0 0 2.67 3.21 120 1.149
Mickey Welch 18 12 34 33 32 2 0 0 293 279 156 88 6 79 112 1 16 1110 0 0 2.71 3.06 113 1.225
Pud Galvin 17 15 34 33 31 2 0 0 292.7 312 163 93 5 36 88 2 10 1230 0 0 2.86 3.08 108 1.191
Here's one thing that I can't, for the life of me, understand. Jim Rice is inching closer and closer to 75%, yet Albert Belle is off the ballot.
Sure, Belle played less, but Rice's final three (partial) seasons were average or worse. In less time, Belle managed just one less homer, 381 to Rice's 382, and a better batting line - .295/.369/.564 to Rices .298/.352/.502. Belle's OPS+ was 143 compared to Rice's 128. Belle's peak was easily higher than Rice's. They were extremely similar players, yet one doesn't get 5% of the vote, and another is nearly in. It doesn't make any sense to me.
I agree Belle should have gotten more consideration. But you know how the writers are. Belle had a horrible relationship with the media even worse than Bonds did. He also got caught with a corked bat and then had someone break in and steal it back. Which is one of the reason he got such few votes. If his career hadn't been shortened by injury even the writers wouldn't have been able to justify keeping him out as he would have reached several milestones.
Didn't Jim Rice have a shaky media relationship, as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by TacoBoy
Here this is from "splitters,Beanballs, and the shrinking strike zone"
Quote:
On Friday evening, July 5, 1994, the White Sox and Indians were playing at the new Comiskey Park. A rumor was making the rounds that Belle’s bat had been corked. Pale Hose manager Gene Lamont strode to home plate and challenged the bat’s legality. Umpire crew chief Dave Phillips promptly confiscated the bat and locked it in his dressing room for later inspection.
Along with other members of the Indians, Jason Grimsley knew that Belle’s bat was illegal and, worse yet, that an illegal bat meant an almost certain suspension for Belle, the team’s best hitter. The White Sox and Indians were in a tight playoff race and Grimsley recognized that they needed any edge they could get. He took matters into his own hands.
While the game was going on, Grimsley headed back to the dressing area, removed a ceiling tile in his manager’s office, and clambered on top of an eighteen-inch wide cinder block wall. Guided by a flashlight and with a legal bat in tow, he made his way in secret to the umpires’ locker room, where he switched the bats.
Grimsley’s escapade quickly became no more than a footnote to history. The umpires knew immediately upon examining the bat in their locker room that it had been switched. It bore the name of Belle’s teammate Paul Sorrento. (Every one of Belle’s bats was corked, so Grimsley had been hard pressed to find a legitimate one, choosing Sorrento’s by default.) The enraged umpires made various threats and there was even talk of calling in the FBI. On Sunday, after immunity had been promised for the culprit who’d purloined the corked bat, the Indians handed it over. An X-ray subsequently showed it had indeed been "treated with cork." Just to be sure, the bat was sawed in half, revealing that a hole had been drilled in its end, a cork plug inserted, and the end plugged, sanded, and stained. Grimsley’s role remained unacknowledged until April of 1999, when he came clean. The New York Times ran the story on page one
I'm not sure I was just a kid when Rice played. However he did play in Boston which is one of the biggest media markets. He never got caught with a corked bat and even if Rice did have a bad relationship I can't imagine it being worse then Belle. He was generally hated by everybody. Add to that Belle's frequent brushes with the law..Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Here's some more on Belle:
as you can see. I think it is pretty obvious why Belle didn't come close. Madden said it himself. I find it hard to beleave that Rice had a worse relationship with the media then that...Quote:
Belle was involved in controversial incidents during his major league career. He was suspended in 1994 for using a corked bat. He was fined in 1996 for knocking down Brewers infielder Fernando Viña, who had blocked his way on the basepaths (though many observers felt the collision was a legitimate play). He also had unpleasant interactions with the public. In 1990, he threw a baseball into the stands, where it struck a fan who had been taunting him about his alcohol rehab. He also chased down rowdy trick-or-treating vandals who were celebrating Halloween by throwing eggs at his home; Belle bumping one of the vandals with his car. In 1986, he went after a heckler in the stands who was shouting racist insults at him; he was suspended while his team played in the College World Series.
Sports reporters resented Belle's refusal to grant interviews before a game. A profane outburst directed at a group of reporters in his team's dugout, including NBC Sports personality Hannah Storm, was widely reported during the 1995 World Series. The incident cemented Belle's image in the media, which was further fueled by his unrepentant attitude: "The Indians wanted me to issue a statement of regret when the fine was announced, but I told them to take it out. I apologize for nothing."
Eventually, Belle routinely refused to speak with the media. "I don't get excited talking about myself", he explained. "Guys such as Sandy Koufax, Joe DiMaggio, and Steve Carlton did not interview, and it was no big deal. They were quiet. I am also quiet. I just want to concentrate on baseball. Why does everyone want to hear me talk, anyway?" Belle rarely even conducted interviews regarding his various charitable donations and scholarships that might have burnished his sour image.
In 2001, following Belle's retirement, the New York Daily News' venerable columnist Bill Madden wrote:
"Sorry, there'll be no words of sympathy here for Albert Belle. He was a surly jerk before he got hurt and now he's a hurt surly jerk....He was no credit to the game. Belle's boorish behavior should be remembered by every member of the Baseball Writers' Association when it comes time to consider him for the Hall of Fame."
Responding to this, The New York Times sportswriter Robert Lipsyte observed:
"Madden is basically saying, 'He was not nice to me, so let's **** him.' Sportswriters anoint heroes in basically the same way you have crushes in junior high school... you've got someone like Albert Belle, who is somehow basically ungrateful for this enormous opportunity to play this game. If he's going to appear to us as a surly *******, then we'll cover him that way. And then, of course, he's not gonna talk to us anymore—it's self-fulfilling."
Police photo Albert Belle on Feb. 16, 2006In Belle's first year of Hall of Fame eligibility (2006), he garnered only 7.7% of the baseball writers' votes—missing election by an extremely wide margin.[1] But Belle's vote total was high enough to keep his name on the ballot for the following year. In 2007, however, Belle only garnered 19 votes and dropped off the ballot.
In February 2006, Belle was arrested on suspicion of stalking a woman who was identified in court as a former licensed escort.[2] He was again arrested in charges related to the same case on May 17, 2006.[3] On July 27, 2006, Belle plead guilty to one count of stalking and he was sentenced on August 24 to 90 days in jail and five years supervised probation.[4] Belle's behavior was extreme; he had had a GPS tracking device put on her car, and obtained her phone records. Belle issued an apology to the woman stating, "I have made mistakes in my life, but I have admitted my mistakes and learned from them to be a better person."[5]
Rice was best described as surly with the media but not to the point where they hated him. He's not in the same class as Kingman or Belle when it comes to media hate.
The East Coast media like to bait players into saying things and then taking it out of context and blowing it out of proportion. The appropriately-named Dick Young made a career out of doing this. If you could get them off the record, I'm sure more ballplayers would tell you how much they thoroughly despise reporters. And it's these same reporters who then turn around and decide who gets in the Hall.
To be fair, while they have similar totals, Rice put up equivalent numbers playing in the 70's/80's where guy's weren't hitting 50,60 and 70 homeruns all around him. That counts for something. Still Belle, like Canseco never got an unbiased look at his career. What bother's me isn't that they aren't going into the hall, just that they weren't even considered at all, which is harsh.Quote:
Originally Posted by TexanBob
well Canseco should be a unamious selection into the Hall OF Shame. The guy wrote a book bragging about how everything he accomplished was due to steriod use and how he provided steriods to other players. He is the self proclaimed steriods guru. I think the couple of the votes he got was too many. If ever there was a player who didn't belong in the Hall it was Canseco..
I've got more respect (although not much)for Canseco for talking about it and admitting to it than I do for the players who lie about it. To be honest, I 100% agree that the Canseco shouldn't be in the HoF. He's a cheater. But the other cheaters who lie about it shouldn't get the time of day, either. I'm not saying Canseco's a great guy or anything--if right now he were under consideration for the HoF, you can be darn sure he wouldn't have admitted to steroids. But he's admitted to it, whatever his reasons.
He'll be on the ballot next year, won't he?
Canseco didn't get enough votes to stay on. He's off next years ballot. Rice was hated in Boston by the media, as most Red Sox stars eventually become. The media outlets here are petty and vicious on a level that's incredible. If a player gets an issue with one reporter, often within the month they're all on him like a pack of rabid jackals, regardless of whether he works for the competittion or not. Dan Shaughnessy is often an exception to this rule. He's the Lord High King Jackal, but gets undeserved backup too.
Ted Williams was treated poorly here, Ramirez (before his hammy pulls started), Rice, Clemens, Martinez, also, Boggs somewhat poorly, Greenwell is still often trashed. If they talk a lot though, they're in. Mo Vaughn got buzzed (probably worse) at a strip club, rolled his SUV on the highway heading home, and got a free pass, because he talked, and talked a lot. Oddly though, no Bruins, Patriots, or Celtics that I can think of get the business that baseball players get in this town.
An example is Craig MacTavish
The "official" scoop from legends of hockey:It's the same most places and on Boston sports radio, TV, and print (usually)Quote:
After scoring 43 points in 1983-84, MacTavish was a involved in an automobile accident that forced him to miss the next season.
Here's the real facts of the "accident" from Wiki, which are accurate:Not a bad word about the guy though, ever, that I've heard, in any media outlet here.Quote:
MacTavish missed 1984-85 after being convicted of vehicular homicide, having struck and killed a young woman while he was driving under the influence of alcohol. (MacTavish pleaded guilty to vehicular homicide and driving under the influence of alcohol in an accident the night of January 25, 1984 in Peabody, MA. Kim Radley, 26, of West Newfield, ME, died four days later of injuries sustained in the crash.[1]) MacTavish spent a year in jail as punishment for this offence. While incarcerated, he did manage to watch most of the games that were televised. After MacTavish was released from prison, the Bruins, feeling he deserved a fresh start, subsequently offered to let him out of his contract. MacTavish accepted.
Well, he wasn't as above league average as Belle was. 143 OPS+ vs Rice's 128Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
Belle's lowest of his 5-yr WARP is higher than Rice's highest. Belle put up Rice's raw numbers in 4 less years and 2500 less AB. Belle was better and its not even close. Too bad Belle acted like a jackass and played such a short overall career.
Belle 5-yr WARP 13.7, 12.3, 11.4, 11.3, 10.5 - .318 career EqA
Rice 5-yr WARP 10.4, 9.4, 9.1, 8.2, 7.4 - .295 career EqA
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohms_law
I'm no expert on 19 century baseball, but here's a few points about Bobby Mathews:
First, his career started before the National League was organized. Of his 297 victories, 131 of them were in the National Association in 1871-1875. So his official major league record isn't 297-248, it's 166-130. That's no where near a HOF record on it's own. I have no idea how much credit he should get for his NA record.
Second, most of his good seasons from 1876 on were in the American Association, the weaker of the 2 major leagues of the time. He had only 2 winning records while in the National League: 12-6 in 1879 and 19-15 in 1882. His overall record in the National League in 1876-1881 was 60-75. 1879 was also his only year in the NL in which his ERA was below the league average.
He moved to the American Association in 1883 and went on something of a tear, winning 30 games each of his first 3 years there, goiing 30-13, 30-18, and 30-17. Those were the 4th, 8th, and 5th highest win totals in the AA in those years, but you have to remember that most teams were only using 2 starters at the time. His ERAs were below the league average each of those 3 years, but except for 1883, only a tiny bit below the average.
He dropped off to 13-9 in 1886, with an ERA half a run above the league average. In his final season in 1887, he only pitched in 7 starts, going 3-4, with a really ugly ERA.
If we give him full credit for what he did in the National Association, he probably should be in. Without his NA record, he isn't within a mile of the Hall IMO. So whether or not he should be in depends on how much weight you want to give to records compiled in the NA.
Just to add to the information here between Belle and Rice:
The thing that I notice is that their the same player. They have basically the same average, on base percentage, and slugging percentage as each other. Rice played 16 seasons to Belle's 12, but Rice spent his entire career in hitter friendly Fenway, while Belle played mostly in Cleveland. Cleveland Muni is a hitters bark as well though, although not quite as much as Fenway is.Code:162 Game Average AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
Albert Belle 616 103 182 41 2 40 130 9 4 72 101 0.295 0.369 0.564 143 347 0 8 10 6 20
Jim Rice 638 97 190 29 6 30 113 4 3 52 110 0.298 0.352 0.502 128 320 0 7 6 5 24
Honestly, they should either both be in, or neither one of them should be in. Tough call.
Terrific analysis. Personally, I tend to discount everything (especially pitcher's stats) prior to 1901. The leagues simply weren't stable enough, rules wise, for it to be comparable to todays game. Someone like Cy Young is different, since they get in based on their contribution to creating the game in the first place, in my book. In general though, I don't think that we should be looking at stats from the National Association or American Association at all, for the Hall.Quote:
Originally Posted by dps
Yeah, exactly how I feel.Quote:
Originally Posted by ohms_law
not a tough call for me....both in the HoVG :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ohms_law
Well I guess if you consider, a 17 point difference in OBP, a 62 point difference in SLG and a 15 point diference in OPS+ the same then,Quote:
The thing that I notice is that their the same player. They have basically the same average, on base percentage, and slugging percentage as each other.
*Shrug*
I guess they're the same...
Well, Slugging is certainly different. I caulk at least some of that to Fenway... regardless, what's the margin of error no a 162-game OBA and SLG percentage? That's actually a question that I've been thinking about for a while, but I honestly don't know.
Well I never Liked 162 game average stats. But the difference in the career stats is the same. But that is a good question. I think if Albert Belle wasn't such a knob his whole life he probably would have been around the 60% or so range as far as votes.