Re: Famers on the Fringe: Andre Dawson
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dolfanar
Not if you consider position and. defense speed,e tc... Dave Winfeild would be a good comparable.
True. I missed (or rather, overlooked) Winfield's name on there somehow. I know what's coming next though, but the thing is Winfield didn't get in to the hall because of his bat. He had 12 All Star appearances, 7 Gold Gloves, 6 Silver Sluggers, the Babe Ruth award, Roberto Clemente award, and the Brtanch Ricky award. The writer's/broadcaster's loved the guy (I remember him distinctly being made into a media darling). He's a marginal HOF'er at best (I personally wouldn't place him with Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Mickey Mantle, and company) but... since he is in, why not Dawson?
*shrug*
Re: Famers on the Fringe: Andre Dawson
Oh come on now... Dave Winfield is a marginal HOF player now?
Re: Famers on the Fringe: Andre Dawson
Take a look at him: Dave Winfield
Outside of the glam and glitz of the MLB spotlight, his performances weren't as spectacular as they were always made out to be. I remember vividly, watching Winfield. At the time, it was easy enough to fall for the broadcaster's lines about how great he was, and he was a good player. I wouldn't compare him to most other Hall Of Fame hitter's though. Micky Mantle's stats can stand up to any scrutiny, I'm not so sure that Winfield's stats can. I don't begrudge him being in the hall really, but there are points against him as well (once you get beyond emotional ties).
I just did a query on the Lahman database as well. There were plenty of players that played alongside Dawson who had better (some much better) hitting. From 1978-1984, The top 10 (minimum 150 AB) sorted by slugging are:
Code:
nameFirst nameLast yearID Avg OBP SLG
George Brett 1980 0.39 0.45 0.66
Mike Schmidt 1981 0.32 0.44 0.64
Fred Lynn 1979 0.33 0.42 0.64
Mike Schmidt 1980 0.29 0.38 0.62
Champ Summers 1979 0.31 0.41 0.61
Dave Kingman 1979 0.29 0.34 0.61
John Lowenstein 1982 0.32 0.41 0.60
Reggie Jackson 1980 0.30 0.40 0.60
Jim Rice 1979 0.32 0.38 0.60
Jim Spencer 1979 0.29 0.37 0.59
Re: Famers on the Fringe: Andre Dawson
FYI: Dawson's 1981 season is #20 on that list. 1983 is #34. Winfield is right up there with him (1982 = #18 & 1979 = 19). George Brett appears 5 times (every season between 1979-1983), Dawson 4 (80-83), Winfield 3 (79, 82-83), Schmidt 3 times (80-82).
Re: Famers on the Fringe: Andre Dawson
The only guy's on that list who consistently put up better numbers are HOF already... what's your point? I mean so now Dave Kingman (the very definition of a 1-dimensional player) was a better player than Dawson?
By that criteria Cal Ripken doesn't deserve to be in the hall either...
You're seriously reaching there bud... That you use 150AB as the minimum is friggin' laughable.
Re: Famers on the Fringe: Andre Dawson
A more fair analysis would be 1977-1992, players with atleast 325 AB (with 215 being the cutoff for 1981 shortened season).
I mean HONESTLY... whouses 150 AB as a cutoff? Talk about selective!
Re: Famers on the Fringe: Andre Dawson
Like I said, since Winfield is in...
Regarding Kingman, you said it yourself: At the time,
Quote:
Yep. That was what you hoped your all star no-defense first-baseman put up. Nevermind your gold glove, base-stealing Right Felder...
This is how Bill James and company were able to break into the league and start working for the teams in the first place. There was wide acceptance that out's weren't necessarily anything to worry about. Advance the runners at any cost was the name of the game. As we see now, being willing to accept a walk instead of just swinging to desperately make contact is ultimately more productive. There's certainly still a place for sac hits, squeeze plays, stolen bases, and whatnot. Manager's have to know how to use those tactics correctly, is all.
Anyway, I'm not saying that Kingman was necessarily better. All the players on the list above had better seasons than Dawson did, at the time that Dawson was playing though. It's an argument against his being so "dominant" during that era. Define dominance, because to me a dominant player ought to be on the top of that list multiple times, like George Brett is. Their single season records, but there only from the seasons 1979-1983 (5 seasons), when Dawson's hitting was at it's peak.
Re: Famers on the Fringe: Andre Dawson
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dolfanar
A more fair analysis would be 1977-1992, players with atleast 325 AB (with 215 being the cutoff for 1981 shortened season).
I mean HONESTLY... who uses 150 AB as a cutoff? Talk about selective!
Easy enough. The numbers that I picked were off the cuff, made in about 20 seconds. One minute.
Re: Famers on the Fringe: Andre Dawson
That result set includes 2,863 players.
Top 50, in order of slugging percentage:
Code:
nameFirst nameLast yearID Avg OBP SLG
George Brett 1980 0.39 0.45 0.66
Mike Schmidt 1981 0.32 0.44 0.64
Fred Lynn 1979 0.33 0.42 0.64
Kevin Mitchell 1989 0.29 0.39 0.64
George Foster 1977 0.32 0.38 0.63
Mike Schmidt 1980 0.29 0.38 0.62
Mark McGwire 1987 0.29 0.37 0.62
Kal Daniels 1987 0.33 0.43 0.62
Dave Kingman 1979 0.29 0.34 0.61
George Bell 1987 0.31 0.35 0.60
Jim Rice 1978 0.31 0.37 0.60
Reggie Jackson 1980 0.30 0.40 0.60
Jack Clark 1987 0.29 0.46 0.60
Jim Rice 1979 0.32 0.38 0.60
Greg Luzinski 1977 0.31 0.39 0.59
Jim Rice 1977 0.32 0.38 0.59
Danny Tartabull 1991 0.32 0.40 0.59
Eric Davis 1987 0.29 0.40 0.59
Cecil Fielder 1990 0.28 0.38 0.59
Oscar Gamble 1977 0.30 0.39 0.59
Wade Boggs 1987 0.36 0.46 0.59
George Brett 1985 0.33 0.44 0.59
Dave Parker 1978 0.33 0.39 0.59
Darryl Strawberry 1987 0.28 0.40 0.58
Mike Easler 1980 0.34 0.40 0.58
Will Clark 1987 0.31 0.37 0.58
Dale Murphy 1987 0.30 0.42 0.58
Robin Yount 1982 0.33 0.38 0.58
Pedro Guerrero 1985 0.32 0.42 0.58
Rickey Henderson 1990 0.33 0.44 0.58
Reggie Smith 1977 0.31 0.43 0.58
Mike Schmidt 1977 0.27 0.39 0.57
Don Mattingly 1986 0.35 0.39 0.57
Sixto Lezcano 1979 0.32 0.41 0.57
Mike Greenwell 1987 0.33 0.39 0.57
Rod Carew 1977 0.39 0.45 0.57
Dwight Evans 1987 0.30 0.42 0.57
Jose Canseco 1988 0.31 0.39 0.57
Andre Dawson 1987 0.29 0.33 0.57
Don Mattingly 1985 0.32 0.37 0.57
Willie Stargell 1978 0.29 0.38 0.57
Cal Ripken 1991 0.32 0.37 0.57
Paul Molitor 1987 0.35 0.44 0.57
Barry Bonds 1990 0.30 0.41 0.56
Mike Schmidt 1979 0.25 0.39 0.56
Larry Sheets 1987 0.32 0.36 0.56
George Brett 1979 0.33 0.38 0.56
George Brett 1983 0.31 0.38 0.56
Ben Oglivie 1980 0.30 0.36 0.56
George Foster 1979 0.30 0.39 0.56
Dawson's only on that list once. That kind of makes you're position worse, doesn't it?
I used 79-83 because those are Dawson's biggest hitting seasons. That seemed fair to me. This includes alot of seasons in the very late 80's and early 90's, so I'm not sure that it's actually as fair of a list, to Dawson.
Edit: ******, Word truncated the averages...
Re: Famers on the Fringe: Andre Dawson
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ohms_law
Like I said, since Winfield is in...
Regarding Kingman, you said it yourself: At the time,
This is how Bill James and company were able to break into the league and start working for the teams in the first place. There was wide acceptance that out's weren't necessarily anything to worry about. Advance the runners at any cost was the name of the game. As we see now, being willing to accept a walk instead of just swinging to desperately make contact is ultimately more productive. There's certainly still a place for sac hits, squeeze plays, stolen bases, and whatnot. Manager's have to know how to use those tactics correctly, is all.
Anyway, I'm not saying that Kingman was necessarily better. All the players on the list above had better seasons than Dawson did, at the time that Dawson was playing though. It's an argument against his being so "dominant" during that era. Define dominance, because to me a dominant player ought to be on the top of that list multiple times, like George Brett is. Their single season records, but there only from the seasons 1979-1983 (5 seasons), when Dawson's hitting was at it's peak.
But they DIDN'T... you deliberatly set the bar SO low for AB, that part time players like John Friggin' Lowenstein made the list... And why 1979-1984? Arbitrary to say the least!
I mean there is a reason why a guy who goes 55/150 doesn't win the batting championship. Your criteria are so off that they're not useful in anywya of determining worth, not to mention that you ignore speed and defense entirely.
For fun
Dave Kingman compares to
Similar Batters
Greg Vaughn (869)
Frank Howard (863)
Rocky Colavito (848)
Boog Powell (847)
Roy Sievers (844)
Joe Adcock (834)
Norm Cash (833)
George Foster (827)
Willie Horton (824)
Jose Canseco (821)
I don't see any HOF on THAt list!
Again someone who didn't see Dawson or Winfield play, might make these arguments. Let me put it this way. If Dave Winfield is a marginal HOF player, then so is George Brett and Cal Ripken. Dawson would probably finish 4th in that foursome, but the differance between 1st and 4th isn't as much as you'd like to think... Those four players stack up line up very well with each other.
Re: Famers on the Fringe: Andre Dawson
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ohms_law
Dawson's only on that list once. That kind of makes you're position worse, doesn't it?
I used 79-83 because those are Dawson's biggest hitting seasons. That seemed fair to me. This includes alot of seasons in the very late 80's and early 90's, so I'm not sure that it's actually as fair of a list, to Dawson.
Edit: ******, Word truncated the averages...
I can live with my position being better or worse, as long as the criteria are logical.
Again doing a straight top 50 makes little sense. Some years are big hitting years, some aren't. A top 10, per season for the stretch of 15 years. would make more sense. As you can see from that list '77, '79, '87 are all over represented because they were big hitting years.
Re: Famers on the Fringe: Andre Dawson
Well, I fixed the # of At Bats. I think the seasons were a better comparison though, so here's top 20, 78-84, 325 AB minimum:
Code:
nameFirst nameLast yearID Avg OBP SLG
George Brett 1980 0.39 0.45 0.66
Mike Schmidt 1981 0.32 0.44 0.64
Fred Lynn 1979 0.33 0.42 0.64
Mike Schmidt 1980 0.29 0.38 0.62
Dave Kingman 1979 0.29 0.34 0.61
Reggie Jackson 1980 0.30 0.40 0.60
Jim Rice 1979 0.32 0.38 0.60
Mike Easler 1980 0.34 0.40 0.58
Robin Yount 1982 0.33 0.38 0.58
Sixto Lezcano 1979 0.32 0.41 0.57
Mike Schmidt 1979 0.25 0.39 0.56
George Brett 1979 0.33 0.38 0.56
Ben Oglivie 1980 0.30 0.36 0.56
George Brett 1983 0.31 0.38 0.56
George Foster 1979 0.30 0.39 0.56
Dave Winfield 1982 0.28 0.33 0.56
Dave Winfield 1979 0.31 0.40 0.56
Andre Dawson 1981 0.30 0.37 0.55
Bob Horner 1979 0.31 0.35 0.55
Willie Stargell 1979 0.28 0.35 0.55
I can't figure out why it's rounding the averages now though. Their not rounded on Access, but as soon as their copied to the clipboard they get rounded.
:(
Re: Famers on the Fringe: Andre Dawson
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dolfanar
I can live with my position being better or worse, as long as the criteria are logical.
Again doing a straight top 50 makes little sense. Some years are big hitting years, some aren't. A top 10, per season for the stretch of 15 years. would make more sense. As you can see from that list '77, '79, '87 are all over represented because they were big hitting years.
Now you're talking OPS+.
Dawson Shows up three times on the OPS+ leaderboards:
1980 NL-OPS+ 136-(#6)
1981 NL-OPS+ 157-(#2)
1983 NL-OPS+ 141-(#5)
Re: Famers on the Fringe: Andre Dawson
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ohms_law
I can't figure out why it's rounding the averages now though. Their not rounded on Access, but as soon as their copied to the clipboard they get rounded.
:(
Try pasting into note pad first.
Re: Famers on the Fringe: Andre Dawson
I did, same thing. It's weird because it worked right the first time. I'm gonna try closing Access and reopening it, see if that makes a difference.
